Deeper understanding of why Israel was created

[NameChangedUnderstandingGained]

I have recently visited Poland. Did a lot of reading. Visited a lot of historic sites and museums.

Oh My Gosh - I now REALLY understand why the British Mandate in Palestine created Israel. Even after the war ended Jews were still ostracised, blamed, killed, turned out of lands, unwelcome in many, many nations in Europe. The number of Jews were decimated, many survivors had to use assumed fake identification to survive, some fled to America, to Australia and Europe still wasn't safe or friendly for them hence Israel. One little bit of land where Jewish people originated, where the religion was first founded thousands of years before. A 2 state solution would have been good if both agreed and both wanted to live in peace and prosper. Israel never felt safe so built up a massive defence, built up a country and industry and wanted to prosper.

There is much harm that has been done to many peoples in history. However, the holocaust was unique. I have visited places where Jews no longer exist, they have all gone, millions died, the liquidation of Jews throughout lands, nothing Israel has done in a war is the same as this. The gas chambers, the extermination camps, the work until to drop then we kill you camps. It really is on another scale.

I am now totally pro keeping a land for Jewish people. I don't agree with settler violence but I do agree and understand why Israel needs to defend itself from terrorists who wish to wipe Jewish people from the earth just like the Nazi did.

I stand by my post. Israelis and Israeli civillians at that are currently the ones rampaging around the place, creating fear, spreading violence. When it comes to Area A how do you think Palestinians would feel to see a car load of Israelis coming their way? Visceral fear is what I would guess. Just in the past week Israeli civillians(because that's exactly what settlers are, they aren't proscribed so the are just Israeli civillians) have attacked and abducted a British man who tried to help Palestinians, they've attacked foreign journalists, they've stolen someone's house with the family in it, they committed at least 70 attacks against Palestinians, they've killed a teenager.

Israeli civillians before we even get into the IDF, before we even get into the government have been terrorising Palestinians and anyone else who gets in their way. To turn that around and say that it is Israeli civillians who would too scared to go to area A, yeah I think it's laughable.

There are over 3million Palestinians in the West Bank, if they were the threat, if they really despised Jews as much as we are told they do then it wouldn't be them cowering on the ground being beaten, begging and pleading for the international community to help them. We are told that they love to be martyrs, they are raised and indoctrinated that way, yet they arent fighting, they are being beaten and being killed why is that? Why is it video after video of Palestinians retreating, Palestinians being beaten by Israelis, Palestinians running and hiding for their lives when they are have been brought up to be martyrs for their cause, when they love their children less than they hate Israelis? Why is it Israelis beating people, why is it Israelis terrorising people, why is it Israelis that are sending their children to terrorise people?

Something isn't adding up with the tales that we have been told. Over 3 million Palestinians with a hatred for Jews, a lust for martyrdom and yet there they are not fighting but running and cowering from the people who just want peace.

I don't blame you. It feels like a cesspit here

Tell that to Hamas, or other radicalised Islamic groups.

You were accusing them of propaganda for saying that Israel, the PA and Gaza are different entities, which they are.

Or that Palestinian citizens of Israel have equal rights, which they do in terms of them holding formal citizenship, which provides the right to vote in national elections, run for office, and access the civil court system.

A false accusation.

You stand by your post @DeterminedRat

That's part of the problem, people seeing things in a very one sided way and not acknowledging there is blame and violence on both sides in the historic conflict.

In a poll conducted by Gallup in August 2023 asking Israelis if they would support the creation of a separate Palestinian state only 25% of Israelis supported a two-state solution, while an overwhelming 65% actively opposed it.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/695582/peace-distant-prospect-israelis-palestinians.aspx

So if a two State solution is not acceptable to Israelis and a single State solution isn't, what is the solution? Expulsion and ethnic cleansing? Formal annexation of the entire West Bank and keeping them subjugated without any self determination or rights? What is the moral and humane answer if that is the democratic will of the people?

Under Israeli law Palestinian citizens have equal rights, but the structural inequities, particularly around land and resource allocation, make it difficult for them to fully realise them.

It's funny because when António Guterres said that Oct 7 'didn't happen in a vacuum' people clamoured for his resignation, it was said that he was 'justifying' what happened, it was seen as outrageous. This was the same for every single person who said that the conflict in Gaza didn't start on Oct 7, they were labelled as terrorist supporters.

When Israeli civilians are beating 10 shades of shit out of innocent people on the daily in their homeland as they cower and beg and plead to be left alone suddenly we have to acknowledge that they are to blame for what Israeli civilians are doing to them every day or we are the problem?

Now though you are saying that Israelis have to accept their part in Oct 7, accept their portion of 'blame' for what happened that day? António Guterres was right and people were wrong to denounce him?

Yes, in common with many other countries.

No I do not hold Israeli civilians in any way to blame for the massacre and rapes of October 7th. That would be victim blaming.

Right. And the innocent Palestinians in the West Bank cowering from violent Israeli civilians who by international law should not even be there are not at all to blame for what is happening to them. The violent Israeli civillians are to blame, they are the violent murderous ones invading others territory and causing fear and pain. It isnt being part of the problem to accept that. The innocent Palestinians being invaded and terrorised are not to blame, just like the innocent Israelis who were invaded and terrorised were not to blame. So where is the problem exactly?

I think when a country suffers a terrorist attack with widespread murders, kidnappings and in some cases sexual violence towards its people, the first response should just be sympathy really.

While it's true that the event "didn't happen in a vacuum" - no historical event does - there's something wrong when your first response is to blame that country for the atrocities committed on their mainly civilian victims.

Not the civilians obviously. How about subsequent Israeli governments that from 2005 until Oct7 had murdered five times as many Palestinians in Gaza than Israelis who were murdered on Oct7. They called it mowing the grass.

Right so where is the problem in blaming violent invading Israeli civillians for being violent invaders? Why are you saying that their victims should accept some of the blame?

I don't put any blame on "innocent Palestinians in the West Bank" cowering from the settlers. I have every sympathy for them and think the settlers are awful people who should be punished.

I don't understand your question, So where is the problem exactly?

Hamas attacked ordinary Israelis, such as young people at a music festival and mothers with young children.

You said That's part of the problem, people seeing things in a very one sided way and not acknowledging there is blame and violence on both sides in the historic conflict. in reply to my post about violent Israeli civillians terrorising innocent people.

Israeli civillians are attacking 'ordinary Palestinians, such as mothers of young children, young children, elderly people and everyone in between' every single day. Palestinians aren't to blame for this. The violent Israeli civillians are. There is no need to acknowledge anything other than how disgusting these Israeli civillians are and that Palestinians deserve to be able to live their lives free from their tyranny. We don't have to look at history or accept that both sides are to blame. The people being attacked are not to blame, the violent Israeli civilians are. It doesn't make someone part of any problem to say that.

So you're saying other countries have a different tier of citizenship as well. I can't think of any.

UAE?

You think there is a tiered structure of rights for citizens of the UAE? Explain.

What? In the UAE if you are not Emirati, then you are not a citizen. You just live and work there, with a work visa. Not the same at all as Palestinians born and bred in Israel.

So if I go to the UAE and become a citizen, my children born there would have exactly all the same rights as all children born to native Emeratis?

First off, the UAE rarely grants citizenship to foreigners. If you already had children, even if they were born there, they would not automatically qualify for citizenship. If, on the other hand, after you were granted citizenship and you had a child, that child would automatically be a citizen with full rights. That is actually the same as all countries where a foreigner acquires citizenship and is nothing to do with a tiered structure of rights of citizens that Israel has.

Quick google -

The United Arab Emirates maintains a strict legal distinction between citizens by law (native Emiratis whose families have deep historical roots in the country) and naturalized citizens (foreigners who obtain nationality later in life).

it goes on to say that children born to naturalised citizens have differing rights quite similar to that of Isreal.

You're talking about discrimination between naturalised and born citizens. Even the UK distinguishes by the government being legally allowed to revoke the citizenship of a naturalised citizen. Israeli Arab citizens are born in the country and the discrimination against them is based purely on religion or more specifically, the lack there of. A born Israeli Arab citizen does not have the same rights as a US person who applies for citizenship in Israel tomorrow if they are Jewish. What other country does that?

No I am talking about the children of naturalised citizens who are by definition native, born and bred citizens of the UAE if they are born in the UAE after their parents are naturalised . The question was posed what other country has different rules for different types of born and bred citizens and I have given an example. The uk absolutely does not distinguish between children born to naturalised citizens and children born to citizens who have been on the Uk for generations.