Deeper understanding of why Israel was created

[NameChangedUnderstandingGained]

I have recently visited Poland. Did a lot of reading. Visited a lot of historic sites and museums.

Oh My Gosh - I now REALLY understand why the British Mandate in Palestine created Israel. Even after the war ended Jews were still ostracised, blamed, killed, turned out of lands, unwelcome in many, many nations in Europe. The number of Jews were decimated, many survivors had to use assumed fake identification to survive, some fled to America, to Australia and Europe still wasn't safe or friendly for them hence Israel. One little bit of land where Jewish people originated, where the religion was first founded thousands of years before. A 2 state solution would have been good if both agreed and both wanted to live in peace and prosper. Israel never felt safe so built up a massive defence, built up a country and industry and wanted to prosper.

There is much harm that has been done to many peoples in history. However, the holocaust was unique. I have visited places where Jews no longer exist, they have all gone, millions died, the liquidation of Jews throughout lands, nothing Israel has done in a war is the same as this. The gas chambers, the extermination camps, the work until to drop then we kill you camps. It really is on another scale.

I am now totally pro keeping a land for Jewish people. I don't agree with settler violence but I do agree and understand why Israel needs to defend itself from terrorists who wish to wipe Jewish people from the earth just like the Nazi did.

You said half the population of Israel. All the population of Israel have the same rights. As you well know.

As you said, it’s like pulling teeth. Google will tell you this:

No, the entire population under Israel's effective control does not have the same rights. Rights vary significantly based on citizenship status, ethnicity, and geographic location. 1, 2, 3]
Arab Citizens Inside Israel (1948 Borders)

• Legal status: Arab citizens (about 21% of Israel's population) hold formal citizenship, meaning they have the right to vote in national elections, run for office, and access the civil court system. 1, 2, 3]
• Disparities: Human rights organizations and government reports note that Arab citizens face systemic inequalities in practice. These include lower funding for public education and infrastructure in Arab municipalities, restrictions and discrimination in housing and land allocation, and the impact of laws like the 2018 Nation-State Law, which defines Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people. 1, 2, 3, 4]
• Constitutional gap: Israel has no formal constitution or a Basic Law that explicitly guarantees a general right to equality before the law. 1]

Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza

• Under military rule: Millions of Palestinians living in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip live under Israeli military rule or blockade rather than Israeli civil law, denying them basic political and civil rights under Israeli sovereignty, such as voting in national elections or freedom of movement. 1, 2]
• Israeli Settlers: By contrast, Israeli settlers living in the same territory (the West Bank) retain full Israeli citizenship and civil rights, creating a dual legal system based on identity and nationality. 1, 2]

East Jerusalem Residents

• Permanent residency: Palestinians in East Jerusalem mostly hold permanent residency status rather than citizenship. They can vote in municipal elections and access Israeli healthcare and social security, but they cannot vote in national Knesset elections and face a high risk of residency revocation or strict building restrictions

So are Palestinians under Israeli rule or not. Is there already a two state solution? I would appreciate it if you could explain it to me because by your statement, they should already be an independent country with self determination. I don't see it that way. Would love you to explain it.

You know very well that Israel, the PA and Gaza are different entities and that Palestinian citizens of Israel have equal rights.

No. They don’t.

Stop believing your own propaganda. And then we might get somewhere.

I’m sorry but the people responsible for behaving appalling towards Jewish people were Europeans and it was a cynical move to “create” a state where people already lived in the Middle East.

A better option, and I remain absolutely convinced of this, is to have places where everyone regardless of religion or race, are safe.

Agreed. But here we are.

you do realise Google is free.

I have seen AI videos from certain ministers in the Israeli government about how Palestinian will be treated. Sentences are harsher for Palestinians. I’m so glad that the internet exists so we can find these truths.

It can be changed and one day it’ll get there. Maybe not in our lifetime but we have to fight for it.

Oops. I seem to have been a bit too logical and empathetic again.

There isn't much more time for the Palestinians. It is the final push and I think if nothing changes soon, an entire people and culture will be consigned to the history books.

I know this thread is pretty much a fact free zone but if anyone interested in reality is reading it, the population of Palestine is increasing
www.worldometers.info/world-population/state-of-palestine-population/

What rights would Jews living in Gaza or area A have? Or are they prevented from living there at all because of the danger to their lives?

I'm sorry but this is an hilarious take. Prevented from living there because of the danger to their lives?

Israelis battering the everliving shit out of Palestinians left, right and centre in the West Bank, why wouldn't Palestinians welcome them into the 40% of their land they've managed to hold onto? It's not like they've been watching the deadly behaviours of Israelis in the 60% of the West Bank they have already taken from them and would be terrified for their lives seeing Israelis pulling up. Nah its Israelis who 'are being prevented from living there' because Palestinians aren't scared, no that's just Israelis who get scared. Palestinians are dangerous right, they are the threat not the people currently running riot committing violence 🙄

Is that a bad thing. Should it be decreasing.

I'm curious. What do you think should happen with the Palestinians. Are you of the they should be encouraged to emigrate camp. Are you along the Yitzhak Rabin view of wishing they would just disappear tomorrow morning. Maybe you're more Meir Kahane. Perhaps, I hope not, but you're more in the Ovadia Yosef camp. Which is it? As I said, just curious because you don't seem open to any other solution.

The complete refusal to understand why Israel should need its own state is ironically exactly why Israel needs its own state.

We argue on MN and sometimes discussions are frustrating or upsetting. But facts are facts regardless. The international community isn’t calling for a one state solution and it won’t happen without external pressure. It isn’t workable given the 2 very different cultures & religions of Israelis & Palestinians, the long history of aggression on both sides and what would inevitably happen given the higher birth rate of one side compared to the other. It really is a step too far to suggest Jewish people should lose their country. They don’t have another Jewish country to settle in.

Palestinians deserve a country too and that is why reasonable people support a two state solution. Even that is going to be extremely hard to achieve seeing as the two sides never seem to agree to it at the same time. But Israel would literally never agree to a one state solution and with very good reason from their perspective.

@Twiglets1 ,

I think your above post is absolutely right.

For people who say Jews don’t need their own state, as all (or even some) countries should be entirely safe for Jews, you are entirely glossing over the history of the Jews since biblical times. They have been driven out of country after country after country. And every country they have been driven out of was, by definition, safe and welcoming for a while.

It is being governed by their own people which makes Israel safe for Jews, not laws or constitutions, which can be easily changed or undermined (look at even the U.S now).

However, your above post does hint at a horrible dilemma facing Israel. The birth rate of Palestinians is far higher than liberal Jews. However the settlers have similar birth rates, 4-6 children per couple. And, if this persists, coupled with religious immigration, what will be the character of Israel going forward? Will it still be a homeland for liberal Jews like me (I wouldn’t visit now with the current government) or become a Jewish theocracy, no better or worse than any other theocracy.

I think the international community has to push hard for a two state solution now, before it is too late.

I think the settlers are a massive problem for Israel @Newbutoldfather

The higher birth rate of the settlers coupled with their extremist views does threaten the character of the country. And I can't believe some of the things that the far right ministers Ben Gvir and Smotrich have been allowed to say and do. People holding such extreme views need to be eliminated from being in government so I think the upcoming elections are vital for Israel voters to do that. I will be very disappointed if they don't.

Except posts don't get deleted for being too logical and empathetic.

It's rude to falsely accuse someone of propaganda.

@SharonEllis is correct - the question was whether Palestinian citizens of Israel have equal rights.

People bringing in how Palestinians are treated in the PA and Gaza are talking about something different because they aren't citizens of Israel.

Your own source re Arab citizens inside Israel (1948) indicates that the answer is largely positive because Arab citizens hold formal citizenship, meaning they have the right to vote in national elections, run for office, and access the civil court system.

On the more negative side, however, Human rights organizations and government reports note that Arab citizens face systemic inequalities in practice, for example via lower funding for public education and infrastructure in Arab municipalities. That is legitimate course for concern.

You mock the idea that "Palestinians are dangerous" but do you not accept that Hamas are Palestinians and they are dangerous (or were, anyway, before the outcome of the war).

How can you argue that the Palestinians who joined or enabled Hamas were not dangerous to Israeli civilians, given the evidence of what happened on 7/10/2023?

Palestinians, especially those in Gaza, are extremely dangerous to Israelis and, more generally, to Jews.

70%+ supported 7/10 and none helped the hostages, kept in inhumane conditions.

However, there is also context to this. There is no question that the Israelis have treated Gaza very badly for decades. There is context to this, but if you are a Palestinian with no real opportunities, why should you appreciate this.

The average age of a Gazan is 19 (!!). They have known nothing but the brutal dictatorship of Hamas and their education system has used every antisemitic trope in the book to indoctrinate them.

So, what is the solution. It is a meaningful deradicalisation program and this needs to take place in the context of allowing them a good education and the prospect of a good career thereafter.

It really doesn’t take more than a generation (20 years or so) to deradicalise a population. Look at Germany 1965 vs Germany 1945.

(And, for balance, and to a lesser extent, 7/10 and the current government has at least partially radicalised some of the Israeli population too. And some of the schools in Israel also teach what amounts to racist religion and history. So, this needs to be dealt with at the same time).

Maybe I am idealistic but I don’t think any of the above is impossible. However, we need to have a very different government in the U.S to push Israel into accepting that Palestinians have rights too and the elimination of the Iranian proxies whose aspirations are for continuous war and profiteering, regardless of the cost to their people.

I think if you read the thread carefully again Twigs, you’ll find that @SharonEllis did it first.

No need to apologise…..