Deeper understanding of why Israel was created

[NameChangedUnderstandingGained]

I have recently visited Poland. Did a lot of reading. Visited a lot of historic sites and museums.

Oh My Gosh - I now REALLY understand why the British Mandate in Palestine created Israel. Even after the war ended Jews were still ostracised, blamed, killed, turned out of lands, unwelcome in many, many nations in Europe. The number of Jews were decimated, many survivors had to use assumed fake identification to survive, some fled to America, to Australia and Europe still wasn't safe or friendly for them hence Israel. One little bit of land where Jewish people originated, where the religion was first founded thousands of years before. A 2 state solution would have been good if both agreed and both wanted to live in peace and prosper. Israel never felt safe so built up a massive defence, built up a country and industry and wanted to prosper.

There is much harm that has been done to many peoples in history. However, the holocaust was unique. I have visited places where Jews no longer exist, they have all gone, millions died, the liquidation of Jews throughout lands, nothing Israel has done in a war is the same as this. The gas chambers, the extermination camps, the work until to drop then we kill you camps. It really is on another scale.

I am now totally pro keeping a land for Jewish people. I don't agree with settler violence but I do agree and understand why Israel needs to defend itself from terrorists who wish to wipe Jewish people from the earth just like the Nazi did.

@Squeezingwildoranges ,

‘I don't agree. Judaism is a religion first. The ethnicity is simply based on a belief that they are all descended from the twelve tribes. I don't see the cultural ties between a European and Middle Eastern Jewish person, prior to the formation of Israel. They ate different food, different music, dressed differently and didn't even speak the same language unless they had learnt modern Hebrew who very few people had.’

I am afraid that is overly simplistic.

Certainly within Ashkenazi Jews, there is a genetic element. Most of us are vulnerable to the same genetic disorders.

But, also, even if an ethnicity stems from religion originally, it becomes a culture too. The Seder supper on Fridays, the ritual foods etc etc. Yes, there is overlap in that secular Jews like me have spent time with more religious Jews and shared meals etc, but it is based on a lot more than religion in the modern world.

One of my best friends at school was from Egyptian Jewish stock (Sephardi). Neither of us were very religious (in my case, not at all) but we still had a lot in common.

(To be fair I also find I have quite a bit in common with moderate Muslims , but it is not quite the same)

I have a very close Jewish friend who, like you would call themselves secular. We are both British and ethnically I see no difference between us whatsoever. However, I have met an Iraqi Jew (no longer lives in Iraq) and we are very different ethnically speaking.

It has an established church, known the church of England (and Church of Scotland which is a different strand of Protestant) which established over 450 years ago. In that time there was vast societal change to the point that now the majority of people do not go to Protestant churches. Religious persecution was previously sanctioned and is now illegal. What the hell has this to do with Israel?

Jews are an ethnicity. If you can't see that it doesn't change the fact.

Legally, the United Kingdom is a Protestant Christian country because it's constitution is not codified and where the apparatus of the state is officially bound to the Protestant Church. There are 43 countries globally that feature an official state religion codified directly into their constitution or foundational laws. Israel is one of them. I'm not saying change that. Keep the constitution and introduce laws that protect the Jewish population. Even bring it in that as a citizen of Israel, your duty is to protect the Jewish population, no matter what your background. The safe homeland for Jews could be an unamendable constitutional mandate. If the UK went to war and introduced the draft, a young Pakistani Muslim would not be exempt from the draft and so they shouldn't be. Same could be done in Israel. A formally Jewish country that isn't an apartheid state.

I have no idea what world you live in. What possible evidence is there that the Palestinians would accept 'a formally Jewish country' and much more importantly who would enforce the protection of what would be a Jewish minority? You think the people that ran & grew up with institutionalised Pay for Slay would suddenly decide to stop slaying? Israel already affords equal rights to minorities and protects their religion. It is not an apartheid state. Hamas on the other hand does not.

Hamas is a symptom of a diseased apartheid country. Nothing more. You think a young Palestinian who was given the opportunity to become a policeman with a good salary and equal rights would not prefer that to what he is going through now. What is your solution. Never ending violence.

No, Hamas is the product of an evil, corrupt ideology. To blame Israel for Hamas is a disgrace.

@Squeezingwildoranges ,

The issue you don’t seem to see is that without a Jewish majority (including secular) and a Jewish majority government, what is to stop Israel becoming a full on Muslim state and then eliminating the Jews?

The Weimar Republic had a constitution that protected all religious groups equally. And that didn’t end well.

Surely you can see that this is a legitimate concern?

A well implemented two state solution would share the land and resources and enable both Jews and Palestinians to live in freedom.

I strongly recommend reading Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib for a Palestinian perspective. What a betrayal of the Palestinian people to try & pretend they are incapable of knowing the difference between good and evil and that terrorism against Israel is Israel's fault.

It’s not an apartheid state. Are you joking or incredibly naive?

Human rights organizations document more than 65 Israeli laws that directly or indirectly discriminate against Palestinian citizens of Israel

Neither.

Its one organisation, Adalah, that makes that claim and it highly contested. You may agree with them but dont come here making out its widely accepted by reputable organisations. Israel is not perfect, discrimination exists, as it does everywhere. Despite the persistence and regilarity of Palestinian terrorism Israel affords equal rights to Palestinians, there are Arabs & Palestinians in the Knesset etc. It is not by any definition an apartheid state.

@JadeHare ,

I can see that it has elements of being an apartheid state, but it is nothing like South Africa.

I can see people thinking of Gaza and the West Bank as homeland analogies, but It is not based on race, as Arabs in Israel proper (over 1 million of them) have the same rights as Jews in law.

There is proof, literally, that Hamas was funded by Israel in order to divide the Palestinians. Literally undeniable proof. If you don't believe me I will post it but it is so established as a fact, I'd rather not bother having to dig it up.

What is a well implemented two state solution. A two state solution means total autonomy for the Palestinians without any interference by their Israeli neighbours. Would they be allowed an airport. An army. A navy. Or would it just be an even bigger open air prison like Gaza. I'm not sure who is more of an idealist. You or me.

Adalah is only one organisation. There are many others that agree with them. A quick copy and paste of just some of the laws:

• One of Israel’s quasi-constitutional Basic Laws. Stipulates that the right to self-determination in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories (West Bank, East Jerusalem, Gaza) “is unique to the Jewish people” and encourages racial segregation and discrimination against Palestinians in housing by directing the state to promote the “development of Jewish settlement as a national value.”

The Death Penalty for Terrorists Law

• Stipulates death by hanging for Palestinians convicted of killings defined as “acts of terrorism” under Israeli law with no due process in Israel’s military court system. Israel’s military courts have a conviction rate of more than 95%(this link opens in a new window) against Palestinians and have been condemned as fundamentally unjust by rights groups. Was written so it applies exclusively to Palestinians and not to Jewish Israelis who kill Palestinians in acts of terrorism. Amnesty International called(this link opens in a new window) it “one of the world’s most extreme death penalty laws.”
• laws.”

3. The Law of Return

• Gives Jews from anywhere in the world the right to immigrate to Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories and to automatically receive Israeli citizenship. At the same time, Israel denies indigenous Palestinians who were expelled during and after Israel’s establishment their legal right to return to their homeland because they aren’t Jewish and treats Palestinians with Israeli citizenship, who comprise more than 20% of Israel’s population, as second-class citizens.

4. The Admissions Committee Law

• Authorizes hundreds of smaller towns to set up “admissions committees” to reject applications from Palestinians, LGBTQ people, and others deemed undesirable using criteria such as being “unsuitable to the social life of the community… or the social and cultural fabric of the town.”

5. Absentee Property Law and Land Acquisition Law

• Allows Israel’s government to expropriate land and other property belonging to Palestinians who were driven from their homes during the state’s establishment. The primary tool used by Israel to steal huge amounts of land and private property from Palestinians who were expelled and denied their right to return, including many internally displaced within Israel’s borders.

6. Israel Lands Law

• Another of Israel’s quasi-constitutional Basic Laws stipulates that ownership of state lands can only be transferred between the government and quasi-governmental agencies like the Jewish National Fund, which only leases land to Jews. Ninety-three percent of the land in Israel is state owned. Israel’s discriminatory land policies make it extremely difficult for Palestinians with Israeli citizenship to gain access to land for residential, commercial, agricultural, or other uses.
• uses.

7. The Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law

• Prevents Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza who are married to Palestinian citizens of Israel from gaining residency or citizenship status, including those who were expelled from towns inside what became Israel in 1948. Forces thousands of Palestinian citizens of Israel to leave the country or live apart from their spouses and families.

8. The Nakba Law

• Bans public funding for institutions and organizations involved in commemorating the violent expulsion of three quarters of all Palestinians during Israel’s establishment as a Jewish-majority state in 1948, known to Palestinians as the “Nakba” (“catastrophe”).

Literally half the population that exist in Israel have no rights or self determination. How can that not be apartheid. Even South Africans have said we lived under Apartheid but it was no where near as bad as this.

Where on earth are you getting your information from? You need to have a word with them. Google is your friend. I suggest you start there and put aside whatever propaganda it is that you are reading.

Google. Strangely enough. Although I already knew this. Sorry others don’t.

Same could be said.

What do you mean half the citizens of Israel have no rights or self determination?

Or do you mean to refer to the Palestinians in the OPT? They are not citizens of Israel. Why should they have the same rights as Israeli citizens then?

What rights would Jews living in Gaza or area A have? Or are they prevented from living there at all because of the danger to their lives?

All these threads do is re emphasize the need for a Jewish state.

For all the conflict in Sudan, Yemen, Russia / Ukraine, do we have a single thread containing post after post calling in to question the right of Russia, Sudan, even China ( for expanding into Tibet or into the Uyghurs indigenous land ) right to exist. We do not.

The utter disingenuousnes of suggesting both could live in one state without one side oppressing the other is infuriating too. These are peoples with two completely contrary ways of life. It's calling for the destruction, likely bloody, of the only Jewish nation in the world in fake polite terms.

Am Yisrsel Chai. And screw this corner of mumsnet.

A flounce? Heavens above!

Are you denying that there are millions of people living under Israeli control who have no rights and are persecuted regularly. Are you telling me those millions of people have exactly the same rights as any Israeli citizen. All the people in Gaza, the West Bank, East Jerusalem.

So what passports do those people who are not Israeli citizens have?