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Deeper understanding of why Israel was created

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NameChangedUnderstandingGained · 26/10/2025 16:40

I have recently visited Poland. Did a lot of reading. Visited a lot of historic sites and museums.

Oh My Gosh - I now REALLY understand why the British Mandate in Palestine created Israel. Even after the war ended Jews were still ostracised, blamed, killed, turned out of lands, unwelcome in many, many nations in Europe. The number of Jews were decimated, many survivors had to use assumed fake identification to survive, some fled to America, to Australia and Europe still wasn't safe or friendly for them hence Israel. One little bit of land where Jewish people originated, where the religion was first founded thousands of years before. A 2 state solution would have been good if both agreed and both wanted to live in peace and prosper. Israel never felt safe so built up a massive defence, built up a country and industry and wanted to prosper.

There is much harm that has been done to many peoples in history. However, the holocaust was unique. I have visited places where Jews no longer exist, they have all gone, millions died, the liquidation of Jews throughout lands, nothing Israel has done in a war is the same as this. The gas chambers, the extermination camps, the work until to drop then we kill you camps. It really is on another scale.

I am now totally pro keeping a land for Jewish people. I don't agree with settler violence but I do agree and understand why Israel needs to defend itself from terrorists who wish to wipe Jewish people from the earth just like the Nazi did.

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Squeezingwildoranges · 31/08/2026 14:12

Twiglets1 · 31/08/2026 13:53

There is not going to be extreme international pressure on Israel to agree that the only Jewish state should cease to exist.

Edited

What part of the UK is a Protestant Christian country but it doesn't oppress anyone you're not getting. Everyone has equal rights but it is still a Protestant Christian country.

AlonsoMosley · 31/08/2026 14:13

Twiglets1 · 31/08/2026 14:05

You seem not to be understanding that genocide has to be proven in an international court of law.

Not letting international observers or journalists into Gaza is something you can criticise Israel for but it's nothing to do with genocide. Other countries equally don't allow independent journalists in - Iran for example.

A - Israel and Iran function in a comparable way? Sure you want to open up that chestnut?

B - usually cases before a court need proof of some kind. For a genocide case they would surely need to have data from the ground. To get that, they need to be allowed in...

Twiglets1 · 31/08/2026 14:16

AlonsoMosley · 31/08/2026 14:10

Which means that Israel - the world's only Jewish state - would be eliminated.

It would not be eliminated.

It would be changed, yes.

As is/was Gaza, West Bank, all the settlements, the Roman Empire, The British Empire, India and Pakistan, Bangladesh, Ireland, England, Scotland. Wales, The US, and on and on. The world over, countries change all the time.

You Tube has some amazing video graphics of maps - we are in a constant state of change.

Yes we are in a constant state of flux but I don't think you are taking on board the fact that Jewish people only have one country that is Jewish.

I've seen several Jewish people on MN (other boards, most don't stay on this Conflict in the Middle East board for long) say that if antisemitism gets any worse in the UK they will move to Israel. It seems a comfort to them that there is one place on earth where they won't have to fear antisemitism.

Twiglets1 · 31/08/2026 14:20

AlonsoMosley · 31/08/2026 14:13

A - Israel and Iran function in a comparable way? Sure you want to open up that chestnut?

B - usually cases before a court need proof of some kind. For a genocide case they would surely need to have data from the ground. To get that, they need to be allowed in...

The International Court of Justice considering the case of genocide have so much information and evidence to wade through that they don't expect to be able to reach a verdict for several years. It's not a straightforward case whatever you may think.

And I did not say that Israel and Iran function in a comparable way. I'm not defending that Israel don't allow international journalists in, I just don't think that has anything to do with the genocide claim.

SharonEllis · 31/08/2026 14:23

AlonsoMosley · 31/08/2026 13:43

'the oldest hatred'

There is no way that anti semitism is older than misogyny.

I take issue with the claim that Jewish people have suffered more, for longer and in a continuous way, throughout history. This is the point you make.

If it was only Jewish people who suffered in those times then yes, Jews were targeted because of their Jewishness.

But, if other groups also suffered at that same time, then Jews were simply part of something else, something bigger that was going on - like civil war in Russia for example.

The Holocaust was clearly targeting Jews.

Misogyny is completely different to antisemitism. Women are not an ethnic category and the dynamics of misogyny are very different to those of ethnic-based persecution. I cant believe I had to type that out.

As for targetted hatred against Jews only existing if they were the only people suffering well I'm speechless.

AlonsoMosley · 31/08/2026 14:25

Twiglets1 · 31/08/2026 14:16

Yes we are in a constant state of flux but I don't think you are taking on board the fact that Jewish people only have one country that is Jewish.

I've seen several Jewish people on MN (other boards, most don't stay on this Conflict in the Middle East board for long) say that if antisemitism gets any worse in the UK they will move to Israel. It seems a comfort to them that there is one place on earth where they won't have to fear antisemitism.

If I were Jewish I have no doubt that I would want somewhere like Israel to exist so that I too could flee in time of peril.

At the moment, that comfort is coming at the cost of enormous human tragedy and devastation imposed on civilians who have little or nothing to do with any of it.

If that sits well with the people who want an option in their back pocket, then I am really not sure what to say.

I don't think there is anything to say.

Twiglets1 · 31/08/2026 14:26

Squeezingwildoranges · 31/08/2026 14:12

What part of the UK is a Protestant Christian country but it doesn't oppress anyone you're not getting. Everyone has equal rights but it is still a Protestant Christian country.

What has your reply got to do with my post, which said there is not going to be extreme international pressure on Israel to agree that the only Jewish state should cease to exist.

SharonEllis · 31/08/2026 14:27

AlonsoMosley · 31/08/2026 14:25

If I were Jewish I have no doubt that I would want somewhere like Israel to exist so that I too could flee in time of peril.

At the moment, that comfort is coming at the cost of enormous human tragedy and devastation imposed on civilians who have little or nothing to do with any of it.

If that sits well with the people who want an option in their back pocket, then I am really not sure what to say.

I don't think there is anything to say.

Good.

Twiglets1 · 31/08/2026 14:35

AlonsoMosley · 31/08/2026 14:25

If I were Jewish I have no doubt that I would want somewhere like Israel to exist so that I too could flee in time of peril.

At the moment, that comfort is coming at the cost of enormous human tragedy and devastation imposed on civilians who have little or nothing to do with any of it.

If that sits well with the people who want an option in their back pocket, then I am really not sure what to say.

I don't think there is anything to say.

If I were Jewish I have no doubt that I would want somewhere like Israel to exist so that I too could flee in time of peril.

We all want that don't we? I know I would cherish my British passport even if I moved to another country. Especially if I felt hostility towards part of my identity from people in that other country.

It's not just an option in their back pocket or would you say that about any other ethnic/religious group who had a dual passport?

Jewish people around the world are not responsible for what is happening in Gaza, neither are most of the civilians in Israel.

AlonsoMosley · 31/08/2026 14:37

SharonEllis · 31/08/2026 14:23

Misogyny is completely different to antisemitism. Women are not an ethnic category and the dynamics of misogyny are very different to those of ethnic-based persecution. I cant believe I had to type that out.

As for targetted hatred against Jews only existing if they were the only people suffering well I'm speechless.

My point about misogyny is challenge your point about "oldest hatred".

I do not think the hatred of Jews is the oldest hatred - other hates will have existed before Jews even existed.

As for targetted hatred against Jews only existing if they were the only people suffering well I'm speechless. That is not an accurate description of the point I made.

Twiglets1 · 31/08/2026 14:38

AlonsoMosley · 31/08/2026 14:37

My point about misogyny is challenge your point about "oldest hatred".

I do not think the hatred of Jews is the oldest hatred - other hates will have existed before Jews even existed.

As for targetted hatred against Jews only existing if they were the only people suffering well I'm speechless. That is not an accurate description of the point I made.

I think Sharon's point was very obviously about religion.

Squeezingwildoranges · 31/08/2026 14:41

Twiglets1 · 31/08/2026 14:26

What has your reply got to do with my post, which said there is not going to be extreme international pressure on Israel to agree that the only Jewish state should cease to exist.

Why should the only Jewish state cease to exist. The international pressure would simply be to stop the apartheid and oppression giving everybody equal rights.

BananaPeels · 31/08/2026 14:42

Squeezingwildoranges · 31/08/2026 14:41

Why should the only Jewish state cease to exist. The international pressure would simply be to stop the apartheid and oppression giving everybody equal rights.

But quite clearly if everyone has equal rights, then it will not be a Jewish state for long. Look at Lebanon.

Twiglets1 · 31/08/2026 14:51

Squeezingwildoranges · 31/08/2026 14:41

Why should the only Jewish state cease to exist. The international pressure would simply be to stop the apartheid and oppression giving everybody equal rights.

In a one state solution Jews would lose the only Jewish state they have.

That is something there is no international pressure for.

Squeezingwildoranges · 31/08/2026 14:52

BananaPeels · 31/08/2026 14:42

But quite clearly if everyone has equal rights, then it will not be a Jewish state for long. Look at Lebanon.

Look at the UK. It is officially defined as a Protestant Christian country.

Squeezingwildoranges · 31/08/2026 14:53

Twiglets1 · 31/08/2026 14:51

In a one state solution Jews would lose the only Jewish state they have.

That is something there is no international pressure for.

Why would they lose the only Jewish state? It can still be a Jewish state even if the majority of the country are not Jewish, once again, just like the UK.

BananaPeels · 31/08/2026 15:03

Squeezingwildoranges · 31/08/2026 14:52

Look at the UK. It is officially defined as a Protestant Christian country.

Not the same though- Christianity is a religion - Isreal being a Jewish state is predominately around ethnicity and then religion. You don’t have to practise Judaism to be a Jew. I am ethnically a jew (and I look it) but I am Christian notionally by religion but I am not particularly religious. As David Baddiel said (I think - apologies if I get this wrong- I’m paraphrasing from memory ) - do you think Hitler cared if Jews were keeping kosher? The Jewish state is to protect ethnic Jews from persecution, not whether they go to synagogue.

Newbutoldfather · 31/08/2026 15:04

@Squeezingwildoranges ,

Freedom of religion is already protected under Jewish law. In fact , Jews are actually prohibited from prayer on Temple Mount due to its holiness to Moslems.

I think where we will disagree and the reason I favour a two state solution is that Israel needs a predominantly Jewish government (and I am talking ethnicity/culture rather than religion).

With the best will in the world and even a robust constitution, nothing else would guarantee to keep it safe for Jews. Laws/constitutions can easily change and it just risks becoming yet another Moslem state.

In an ideal world, with a two state solution, it could become like a mini eu with freedom of trade and movement.

Squeezingwildoranges · 31/08/2026 15:17

Newbutoldfather · 31/08/2026 15:04

@Squeezingwildoranges ,

Freedom of religion is already protected under Jewish law. In fact , Jews are actually prohibited from prayer on Temple Mount due to its holiness to Moslems.

I think where we will disagree and the reason I favour a two state solution is that Israel needs a predominantly Jewish government (and I am talking ethnicity/culture rather than religion).

With the best will in the world and even a robust constitution, nothing else would guarantee to keep it safe for Jews. Laws/constitutions can easily change and it just risks becoming yet another Moslem state.

In an ideal world, with a two state solution, it could become like a mini eu with freedom of trade and movement.

Well then I guess the Palestinians are fucked because unless there is global extreme pressure on Israel to accept a two state solution based on the 67 borders, which I can't see happening, there is no Israeli government that will ever clear out the settlements, even if they could which I don't think they would be able to. I guess Palestinians are going to have to accept that they live under extreme apartheid and the Israelis are just going to have to accept that internationally their status as a pariah state is just going to get worse.

SharonEllis · 31/08/2026 15:23

Squeezingwildoranges · 31/08/2026 14:53

Why would they lose the only Jewish state? It can still be a Jewish state even if the majority of the country are not Jewish, once again, just like the UK.

Can you honestly not understand how unmoored from reality this is?

SharonEllis · 31/08/2026 15:24

Squeezingwildoranges · 31/08/2026 14:53

Why would they lose the only Jewish state? It can still be a Jewish state even if the majority of the country are not Jewish, once again, just like the UK.

What does this even mean?

Squeezingwildoranges · 31/08/2026 15:24

BananaPeels · 31/08/2026 15:03

Not the same though- Christianity is a religion - Isreal being a Jewish state is predominately around ethnicity and then religion. You don’t have to practise Judaism to be a Jew. I am ethnically a jew (and I look it) but I am Christian notionally by religion but I am not particularly religious. As David Baddiel said (I think - apologies if I get this wrong- I’m paraphrasing from memory ) - do you think Hitler cared if Jews were keeping kosher? The Jewish state is to protect ethnic Jews from persecution, not whether they go to synagogue.

I don't agree. Judaism is a religion first. The ethnicity is simply based on a belief that they are all descended from the twelve tribes. I don't see the cultural ties between a European and Middle Eastern Jewish person, prior to the formation of Israel. They ate different food, different music, dressed differently and didn't even speak the same language unless they had learnt modern Hebrew who very few people had. The only cultural connection was the religion. I would agree now that they are much more culturally aligned, I'm talking about prior to 1948. Millions of people call themselves Christian but have never prayed a day in their lives. There are millions of Muslims who drink, even a lot who eat pork.

BananaPeels · 31/08/2026 15:30

Squeezingwildoranges · 31/08/2026 15:24

I don't agree. Judaism is a religion first. The ethnicity is simply based on a belief that they are all descended from the twelve tribes. I don't see the cultural ties between a European and Middle Eastern Jewish person, prior to the formation of Israel. They ate different food, different music, dressed differently and didn't even speak the same language unless they had learnt modern Hebrew who very few people had. The only cultural connection was the religion. I would agree now that they are much more culturally aligned, I'm talking about prior to 1948. Millions of people call themselves Christian but have never prayed a day in their lives. There are millions of Muslims who drink, even a lot who eat pork.

thats your opinion but my DNA test says otherwise. Our DNA is so incredibly closely related to the population of Isreal thousands of years ago. Incredible really that it can be traced back to that very specific area. The fact that most Jews can be identified visually is the clue that that they are an ethnic group and that is what is used to identify them. I honestly can believe you think Jewish persecution is based on whether not they read Hebrew and the Torah alone.

Twiglets1 · 31/08/2026 15:32

Squeezingwildoranges · 31/08/2026 15:24

I don't agree. Judaism is a religion first. The ethnicity is simply based on a belief that they are all descended from the twelve tribes. I don't see the cultural ties between a European and Middle Eastern Jewish person, prior to the formation of Israel. They ate different food, different music, dressed differently and didn't even speak the same language unless they had learnt modern Hebrew who very few people had. The only cultural connection was the religion. I would agree now that they are much more culturally aligned, I'm talking about prior to 1948. Millions of people call themselves Christian but have never prayed a day in their lives. There are millions of Muslims who drink, even a lot who eat pork.

Might be worth considering that a Jewish person may just have a better understanding than you of what it means to be Jewish.

We have 2 people commenting on this thread who have both shared that they are ethnically Jewish while not being particularly religious.

Squeezingwildoranges · 31/08/2026 15:33

SharonEllis · 31/08/2026 15:24

What does this even mean?

Is the UK officially defined and recognised as a country that is a Protestant Christian country?