Deeper understanding of why Israel was created

[NameChangedUnderstandingGained]

I have recently visited Poland. Did a lot of reading. Visited a lot of historic sites and museums.

Oh My Gosh - I now REALLY understand why the British Mandate in Palestine created Israel. Even after the war ended Jews were still ostracised, blamed, killed, turned out of lands, unwelcome in many, many nations in Europe. The number of Jews were decimated, many survivors had to use assumed fake identification to survive, some fled to America, to Australia and Europe still wasn't safe or friendly for them hence Israel. One little bit of land where Jewish people originated, where the religion was first founded thousands of years before. A 2 state solution would have been good if both agreed and both wanted to live in peace and prosper. Israel never felt safe so built up a massive defence, built up a country and industry and wanted to prosper.

There is much harm that has been done to many peoples in history. However, the holocaust was unique. I have visited places where Jews no longer exist, they have all gone, millions died, the liquidation of Jews throughout lands, nothing Israel has done in a war is the same as this. The gas chambers, the extermination camps, the work until to drop then we kill you camps. It really is on another scale.

I am now totally pro keeping a land for Jewish people. I don't agree with settler violence but I do agree and understand why Israel needs to defend itself from terrorists who wish to wipe Jewish people from the earth just like the Nazi did.

Glad you acknowledge that the ICJ has not yet reached a judgement on whether Israel is committing genocide in Gaza or not.

Whether states that are party to the Geneva Convention are being proactive enough about taking measure to prevent possible genocide in Gaza is a thread in itself but off topic for this one.

@Newbutoldfather, "Most nation states were in some ways appropriated, and that certainly includes the U.S, Australia and Peru. And the settlers all thought they had racial/religious justification for dispossessing the original inhabitants".

Absolutely true, empire building and colonization were once something a nation was proud of, not ashamed. That all changed as we became more enlightened and colonization is no longer something to be proud of. What happened to the indigenous populations of the US, Australia and Peru is, much like the holocaust, a dark stain on human history. The thing is, the descendants of the remnants of those indigenous populations are full citizens of those countries, something the Palestinians are not afforded. Instead they live as a stateless people with no self determination, virtually no rights, still being dispossessed and persecuted in the lands they lived on for centuries. I do not object to the Jewish people having a safe homeland after what they have been through but I absolutely object to the way the Palestinians are paying the price for the Pogroms and the holocaust when they had nothing to do with it. Should Israel exist, absolutely, but I believe they should find a way to share the land.

Jews are indigenous to Israel so its a different situation. They are 'sharing the land' as a large proportion of the population of Israel is not Jewish and Palestinians and others in Israel do have full rights. Palestinians are not 'paying the price' for Pogroms and the Holocaust (the people that died and fellow Jews who were exiled paid the price) but for the failure of their successive leaders to come to an agreement and to stop attacking Israel. Why are you blaming only the Jews for the wider issues around what you call 'sharing the land'?

@Squeezingwildoranges ,

‘The thing is, the descendants of the remnants of those indigenous populations are full citizens of those countries, something the Palestinians are not afforded’

In law, yes, in reality much less so.

I am, as I am sure you know by now, in favour of a 2 state solution based on the 1967 borders, with all illegal settlements gone.

However, it is really important that this is done in a way that keeps Jews (and Palestinians) safe.

I do feel that, if Israel wanted it, and the Iran-sponsored terrorists were disarmed, with the help of the international community, it should be achievable.

Well for a two state solution based on 67 borders, all settlements will need to be removed. That means uprooting three quarter of a million people. In 2005, less than ten thousand were removed from Gaza. Half of them left voluntarily while the other half refused and had to be forcibly removed. Do you really think, especially as the settlements are still expanding so there is likely to be over a million by then, even if the Israeli government decided to do it, they would be able to do it. It would be civil war.

What's your solution then @Squeezingwildoranges ?

A two state solution will be massively difficult to achieve yes, but it's still the best solution available isn't it? I don't know anyone who doesn't think that.

Though I personally think 7/10/23 has set that goal back I can still see it happening one day, as long as Hamas aren't around forever.

20% are not Jewish and I'm sorry but that was by design from instructions from David Ben-Gurion which he laid down before Israel was even formed.

Jews are indigenous as are Palestinians. Comprehensive historical and genetic research shows that modern Palestinians share deep ancestral roots with ancient Levantine populations, including the Israelites and Canaanites. Rather than a total population replacement, the history of the region is characterized by successive waves of cultural, religious, and linguistic shifts meaning that many ancient Jews and Christians remained on the land and gradually integrated into the arriving Arab/Muslim culture. Genetically, Palestinians and modern Jewish populations (including Ashkenazi, Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews) are very closely related. They share a high percentage of the same paternal Y-chromosome lineages, indicating they trace back to the same ancient ancestral pool. Why should the Palestinians lose their land just because their ancestors converted to another religion whereas someone who converts to Judaism suddenly has a right to the land.

@Squeezingwildoranges ,

It is what I believe would be fair. I am not sure that it will ever happen.

There are other solutions where the settlements are allowed to stay as residents, but not citizens, within Palestine, but guaranteed of their rights. However they would vote in Israeli elections, not Palestinian ones.

Stopping new settlements and withdrawing from Gaza and Lebanon would be a good start though.

As Gaza is locked down, people can only speculate.

International observers and journalists need to be allowed in.

Otherwise, Israel cannot claim that there is no genocide.

They need to prove it.

We could list the other countries in the world that will not let outsiders in to observe. It is not really a list that any self respecting democracy would want to be in company with...

The possibility of a two state solution was closest after the signing of the Oslo accords but even then, all Israel promised to do was look into it. The accords are stone cold dead now. With the expanding settlements, the possibility of a two state solution is getting further and further away. I still believe the land can be shared with everyone having equal rights.

So you believe in one state.

The land that can be shared with everyone having equal rights... what would that land be called? I'm guessing Palestine which means you are in favour of eliminating the world's only Jewish state.

You seem to be muddling up a lot of issues, but on your fundamental point, no Israel does not have to prove there is no genocide. Genocide has a legal definition. You prove that that threshold has been reached, not that it hasn't. And Israel and many others have indeed pit forward evidence that the threshold has not been reached.

Sorry but this is such a muddle Im not going to bother with it. Im not actually sure what you're trying to say.

How could the land be shared with everyone having equal rights when the vast majority of Palestinian Arabs prefer a country with Islam as the official state religion, and the majority of Israelis prefer a secular state? Thats 2 distinct voting blocks.

Not to mention the generations of hatred on both sides.

Do you honestly think this doesnt also equal civil war?

A two state solution has been bandied about since forever - but it never gets done. There is always some impediment, and at this point it is hard not to see that as a manipulation by Israel.

A one State solution seems to be the only way forward - with full citizenship and voting rights.

A one State solution means though that it can no longer be a theocracy, it would have to recognize the other faiths.

You're now trying to put words into my mouth to make me seem antisemitic. I, personally, don't agree with countries defined by religion, I believe in secularism. However there are about 50 countries defined by religion. Israel is one and the UK is another. The UK is officially a protestant Christian Country but people of all religions live there and have equal rights. Even though they are officially a Protestant Christian country, Protestants only make up 30% of the country.

I don't. The war ended in Lebanon because people were tired of it. When I was last in Lebanon, speaking to Lebanese of different religion, Muslims and Christians, the consensus was they would do anything to avoid going back to war. I believe the younger generation and most of the Palestinians are a younger generation, would welcome a chance for peace and equality. Of course there will be underlying animosity for a while but history shows us that time is a great healer.

'the oldest hatred'

There is no way that anti semitism is older than misogyny.

I take issue with the claim that Jewish people have suffered more, for longer and in a continuous way, throughout history. This is the point you make.

If it was only Jewish people who suffered in those times then yes, Jews were targeted because of their Jewishness.

But, if other groups also suffered at that same time, then Jews were simply part of something else, something bigger that was going on - like civil war in Russia for example.

The Holocaust was clearly targeting Jews.

Also factor in the Arab birth-rate being higher than the Jewish one ... can't see a one state solution ever being accepted by Israel.

It's even less likely than the two state solution to ever be adopted.

The only way Israel would ever accept either solution would be extreme international pressure being applied as was done with South Africa. Until that time comes, the Palestinians lives are going to remain wretched, either as a stateless people in their own land or as refugees in another land if Israel does manage to drive them out.

I'm not putting words into your mouth to make you seem antisemitic.

You said "I still believe the land can be shared with everyone having equal rights" - that is the one state solution.

Which means that Israel - the world's only Jewish state - would be eliminated.

There is not going to be extreme international pressure on Israel to agree that the only Jewish state should cease to exist.

Israel does not get to correct its own homework surely?

I mean, we can get bogged down on finer points of definitions.

But if Israel does not let international observers or journalists into Gaza, it is hard to accept that there could be honesty in any claims.

You seem not to be understanding that genocide has to be proven in an international court of law.

Not letting international observers or journalists into Gaza is something you can criticise Israel for but it's nothing to do with genocide. Other countries equally don't allow independent journalists in - Iran for example.

Which means that Israel - the world's only Jewish state - would be eliminated.

It would not be eliminated.

It would be changed, yes.

As is/was Gaza, West Bank, all the settlements, the Roman Empire, The British Empire, India and Pakistan, Bangladesh, Ireland, England, Scotland. Wales, The US, and on and on. The world over, countries change all the time.

You Tube has some amazing video graphics of maps - we are in a constant state of change.