it's not a tiny minority is it

[noddyington]

I do not know any women who have not had something bad or intimidating happen to them in their lifetime. Whether that be cat calling, followed, talked down to, pushed out of spaces, pushed over for promotion, assaulted, stalked, raped or murdered.

I do not know any women who have not changed their behaviour to try and keep themselves safe. It might be walking with keys between their fingers, getting a taxi when they'd rather walk, covering their drink when they are at a bar, not responding when a guy intimidates/heckles at them because it's safer, run or jog in groups, don't wear headphones walking late a night.........

AIBU to say that it's not a tiny minority of men is it?

I’m sure it has happened to other women but I’m in my 60s and apart from when I was a child I have never been intimidated or scared of a woman. I have never been sexually harassed by a woman. It has happened countless times with men. No woman has catcalled me, groped me, struck their hand out to grab my tits, exposed themselves, wanked in front of me, called me a stupid fucking bitch or a cunt, stuck their hand up my skirt, squared up to me in public because I complained about their behaviour etc. etc. I am sorry for the women hurt by other women but no way is at as widespread. It’s making a false equivalence.

When I hear someone walking behind me at night and it’s a woman I’m relieved. Not when it’s a man.

I do agree with you

You're just attempting tp shut someone down who has an opinion that you don't like.

I personally do think that it's a large percentage of men who are awful however just because @Coulditbesam and I have differing opinions, doesn't mean that I think it's ok to throw around nonsense names and allegations to shut them down.

@PrettyPickle sorry that happened to you. I know you are trying to lighten the mood with that crime survey, however, like you yourself, most women do not report abuse to the police. The figures are far higher. You only have to look at the 2% rape convictions after the victims spend on average 4 years dragged through the legal system uprooting their lives to see why.

Well no, because they’re not all idiots and they know how they are SUPPOSED to behave and so they wouldn’t admit that to you. But why when a man makes comments to his friends about a colleague having great tits or a waitress who would ‘get it’ do they either agree or sit silently? It’s a tiny minority of men who challenge their friends and call this behaviour out in social and work settings. I think the % split is large minority harmful men, majority pathetic men who stay silent and don’t defend women, and tiny percentage of men who actually are allies.

I'm sure the French women whose Fathers, Brothers, Sons and Nephews raped Giselle Pelicot would have sworn under oath that they are Good Men, just as the men on trial in the UK for same offences were believed to be Good Men.

Russell Brands wife thinks he is a Good Man and innocent, as did Mrs (Rolf) Harris etc etc etc.

The Men in your life are hardly going to reveal their darkest thoughts to you are they.
And I bet my house if you could read their minds you'd be appalled.

In my own experience, we raise them. And I don't just mean we as women, positive male parents/carers/relatives/role models are vital too.

I think there are very good reasons not to ban it.

But a change in attitude to drinking and drinking culture would make a huge difference. Not just to sexual violence but violent crime in general. You could extend that to some extent to other drugs as well.

Like, we don't have to normalise people getting wasted at parties or on a night out. Or excessive drinking at workplace events.

Universities don't need to normalise parties where young people get wasted and lower all of their social controls and sense of awareness. And in a lot of those cases young people are using that lowered inhibition deliberately to overcome social inhibitions but it's a dangerous thing to do.

None of that precludes a beer or glass of wine with a meal or a shandy on a hot day or even a really nice glass of high end scotch from time to time.

You are perfectly free to disagree and of course women do come in all strengths and sizes. But I think you'll find that the vast majority of men are stronger than the vast majority of women. I really don't think that's contentious in any shape or form. Men are stronger than women, except in very rare cases, and I think it's dangerous to try to convince women otherwise. I do however absolutely agree that strong women rarely if ever use that attribute to attack or subjugate other women. Which actually validates my point. The whole thing is part and parcel of the male psyche and it is their nature, not nurture.

That's a fair point about unreported crime and I gave an example of being assaulted myself without reporting it.

So yes, things need to change but I still think its the minority of men and not the majority. But even a minority is too large a number.

Good feedback, cheers

But it's not a majority of men. It's the majority of men that YOU have had relationships with, from your formative years. Unfortunately your upbringing has probably had a detrimental impact on what standards of behaviour you thought normal in a man and therefore has no doubt affected your choice of partner and caused you to have skewed boundaries (this doesn't always happen consciously of course).

The fact that you have never had a good male role model in your life is not the same as "good male role models don't exist".

For some crimes, particularly those against children, yes. When it’s not a ‘perfect victim’, forget it. You see it with the men online in response to Brand - it was too long ago, she was a slut, she wanted money. Many, many men have their friends and families believe them over a victim and this remains even when, in the very small % of cases, a conviction is achieved. I understand to an extent - how devastating to accept the truth. That the man you birthed or married is actually a disgusting abuser. Much easier to think some drunk teenager is a liar.

I’m also interested in what we (society) do about the vigilante style groups of men who use the cover of ‘protecting women and girls’ as an excuse for violence and spreading hate against other groups.

Like the balaclava clad groups, and the rioters who then were shown to have significant levels of convictions for domestic violence and similar.

I think it’s both, and it’s why I’ll never birth a male child. I’ve seen plenty of people get very upset at my stance but to be honest, it’s a no-brainer to me. I will never take that risk. A mother of an adult son is 8x more at risk of violence from them than a mother of an adult daughter. The chances of me being able to raise a good man in the patriarchal society we live in are far too low for me to accept.

My local online group names and shames the ones with previous VAWG convictions when the pictures are proudly posted on the group. That seems to work. Most of them follow Tommeh and are of the same ilk, ex-cons usually with previous for domestic violence or rape.

I feel like the more rights we gain, the more they hate us. I think that's why violent and degrading porn is so prevelant. They want to see women humiliated. They probably fantasise its their wife or female boss or teen neighbour. Most men are disgusting. What can we do about it? I really dont know.

I think that you've struck on something important here.

As much as people want to think sexual assaults are spread pretty evenly through the population, they really aren't.

There are certain groups that are more at risk, certain things that increase risk, and when you look at numbers you have to keep that in mind.

An obvious one is sex workers are at very high risk of sexual violence, for obvious reasons I think. This is a relatively small group, and I think in a way the one we look at the most realistically - we know the only real answer is to get out of sex work and potentially address the things that caused the person to turn to it, which often include addiction or childhood abuse.

Drug and alcohol abuse, or hanging out with people abusing them, or being homeless - those make women at high risk and a lot of those women are repeatedly assaulted.

Young women are significantly over-represented in assaults that aren't from an established partner.

I think remember, though I would have to check to be sure, that being a victim of abuse as a child makes women more likely to be victims of abuse and assault as adults.

These are all things to consider if we wanted to really look at how to lower sexual abuse.

This exactly.

I actively seek a carriage with other women late at night.

I have experienced all those things you write about and sadly so has my DD who is a young adult.

Have you decided to be child free or to find out the gender early and terminate?

I was talking to my friends about this recently. All in our 40s and have only recently realised how often we were sexually assaulted or harassed whilst growing up. A weekly occurrence for most of us.

Edited to add that by “growing up” I mean teens and in our 20s/30s. It is only ebbing off now we are older, wiser and no longer as attractive to lots of men.

Definitely, and I’m shocked at the number.

I usually read the online comments section a lot in a newspaper where you’d expect the readership to be a bit more educated and thinking, though I hate thinking of it or saying that, especially as I’m not particularly educated. The comments from the men, on stories about Brand & Walliams, have been just as bad as those you’d expect to see on the Daily Mail or the Sun.

I’ve been shocked and so disappointed at the things I’ve read. We’re never going to be thought of as equals, are we?

I read that book about why men hate women. If I remember, it had an awful lot do with how they felt about their mothers….

@BMW6

👏👏👏

So it's a woman's fault? Jesus christ.