To not pay towards her rent?

[BugOnARugDrinkingTeaFromAMug]

My sister has struggled with addiction for many years, she's lost her kids (they live with their dad's) and been in trouble with the police.

She got into a rehab and got kicked out for taking drugs in there so we have kind of gave up on her getting clean. She bounced around from homeless place to another bit eventually got herself a flat.

She has now been sent to prison and because her sentence is over a particular threshold she can't get housing benefit and so is looking at losing her flat.

She has asked me to chip in towards paying her rent, she is planning to ask me, her boyfriend, best friend and her daughter to all club together.

I can afford it, I have a child I am supporting through uni and two children at home so it's not like I won't miss it but I could afford it if I want to.

The reason I am tempted to say no is - it is asking a lot of 4 separate people, if any of them miss a month or change their mind, then the whole lot has been a waste. She can only keep the flat if everyone pays (or someone else picks up the slack). So I can see a situation where everyone feels sorry for her in month one and two, then Christmas comes up and her best friend who has four children can't afford it, so I then pick up that payment too, she has an argument with her boyfriend and he decides he's not paying and before I know it I either pay the lot or. She loses the flat anyway and it's all been a waste of money.

So YANBU - don't pay
YABU - this is your sister, she will be off drugs when she gets out and this is a real chance to change her life. You can afford it so pay.

She doesn't have any money, she claims benefits on the sick. They stop whilst in prison. When she gets out she will go back onto benefits and housing benefit would pay her rent but she won't realistically be able to then pay off 4 grand of rent arrears.

@Nopayrise So, as the niece is 18, can she be added to the tenancy and then she claims the housing element of UC. Could that work?

no point paying for an empty flat, and a very expensive route to go down.

offer to pay a month’s rent as a deposit when she gets out. This will be cheaper, and giving her support when she most needs it.

Can the daughter not claim housing benefit if this her main residence? Does she get UC ?I would suggest your niece talks to the HA/Council as they won't want her to be homeless...

Thank you.

I need to read this. Over and over.

My niece and my sisters best friend can't afford this. They really can't. So I either pay 3/4 or none of us pay.

I think I need to reframe this.

If she is clean when she gets out I can help her from there.

I have previously housed her, when she had her second child after the disaster of her first social services would only allow her to keep her if she lived with me so of course I took them in and they stayed with me for months. Then eventually she moved out and history repeated itself and she lost those children too.

I have just had a look at this, it seems that a child cannot be added to a parent's tenancy.

Jacob: "Are you Steve Jobs?"
Cal: "What?"
Jacob: "Hold on a second. Are you the billionaire owner of Apple Computers?"

You know the answer.

They have explored this and it's not workable, Niece can't be added to the tenancy and she won't get housing benefit without being on the tenancy.

To be added she had to live with her for a certain amount of time already and my sister hasn't even lived there for that long.

Op. YANBU what ever you decide.

I have seen the danage if someone who lost their flat in similar circumstances and would suggest you contribute.

But either way YANBU.

I don't know enough about how the systems all work to give you the best advice or information but I did wonder if the housing associatiion or local authority would be about a property being empty for 8 months when I'd guess they've got a very long waiting list of people desperate for social housing.

I don't know the presedence for it all.

From people I know, I do understand that housing is really important when people come out. I know of a guy who wasn't allowed to stay at his mum's as she had custody of his kids so he ended up in a half way house which meant he had instant access to the drugs and temptations that got him in the mess that got him inside in the first place. He ended up going back inside before he'd even got a chance to see his kids.

That would be a pattern I'd fear for your sister when she's out if there's no home for her to go to especially with her addiction and history with her children being removed.

It's really sad and I completely get why you want to do what you can for her but I would also be very worried that the 4 way split will fall apart. You could end up with a big financial responsibility. But if you can afford it, it could be a huge part of her having a better chance on release.

Or is there an alternative way you could financially help her with housing when she's back out?

Or can the housing association give any reassurances for what they'd plan in 8 months time?

It's so hard. I think you need to talk with some people in person who can give you some proper advice on it. Shelter might be a good organisation to reach out to? Or the Prison Reform Trust. There might be more local charities or organisations who can advise but those two should be able to signpost you.

Save your money, she isn't coming off drugs either way.

I'm sorry OP what a horrible situation to be in. You can't save her. She needs to do the work herself. There is support in prison that if she chooses to engage with will help her with housing when she gets out.

I'd also be concerned there's already sizeable arrears. Don't get involved in paying unless you can afford to throw that money away.

Also if niece could go on n the tenancy and I'm pretty sure from the reading I have done that she can't, but say she could - it's a one bedroom flat. What happens when sister gets out, she sleeps on the sofa forever? Niece won't be able to just come off the tenancy and get a flat of her own cos she will have made herself homeless. So what happens then.

As my mother would say, "God helps those who help themselves".

I do feel sympathy for such a terrible situation, but if she's already lost her kids because of her choices then I'm afraid the scenario in your last paragraph will come to pass. You alone will be the one responsible for her holding onto the flat.

What if anything is she doing to come off drugs while in prison? Sadly it's only too easy to get hold of them there.

The most important thing to remember is your sister isn't losing her flat because you won't pay a quarter of the rent - she is losing it because she did a crime serious enough to be sentenced to 2 years in prison.

A crime serious enough to be sentenced to 2 years in prison isn't a bit of drugs for personal use - so her behaviour is making other people's lives a misery.

Don't allow you, her daughter, her best friend or her boyfriend to be painted as the reason she is losing her flat. She is the reason that she is losing her flat. The tax payer pays for her flat. The taxpayer is now paying for her much more expensive prison stay and won't also pay for her flat- so she wants fsmily and friends to pay for her flat. What does she take responsibility for?

I would just tell her "I'm sorry I cant afford it (even if that isnt strictly true) and I'm pretty sure Callie, Shannon and Ben can't afford it either. I will try and put a little bit by to help when you need to set up a new place." (That would be buying her a duvet etc and not giving her cash obviously).

I expect she has also made her neighbours lives a misery so do them a favour and let her tenancy end so they can catch a break.

I'm guessing if she offends soon after being released she will go back to prison also.

Remember he motto from support groups something like (Al‑Anon’s Three Cs) – I didn’t cause it, I can’t control it, and I can’t cure it

This sounds a very tricky problem, but not yours. What if something happens and her prison time is extended? Council flats are for those in need. She will be housed (prison) for next 8+months, and systems are set up for those coming out. Not ideally what anyone wants but it's the situation she's in sadly.
If you can cover it for 8 months, you do know you will be asked to carry that on until she's on her feet, debts cleared, so your signing up for a lot more. Her poor daughter, maybe needs a flat, but not her mums one, too close, too difficult, everyone sounds vulnerable in this.
Accompany her to meetings to discuss what actually can happen, and help her work within those pirametres. She's struggling and being so reliant on family isn't helping her

Jesus christ - do you have any idea what childhood abuse can do to a person (and seeing as OP said they had the worst childhood imaginable, I'm assuming this was the case)? Dont worry, thats a retorical question, clearly you dont. The lack of empathy is really disgusting, and its shocking how some people expect adults to just bounce back from being abused as a child.

Having said that op, that doesnt mean I think you should pay. I do think you should help her and support her where reasonable, but this isn't reasonable.

I agree with @DahliaDelights, some good points made on her post.
I sympathise with you @BugOnARugDrinkingTeaFromAMug you clearly love your sister despite everything that she's done.

My gut feeling I'm afraid is to let the flat go - and then with luck it will pass to someone who is not a criminal and is in great need.

If you can afford it - and you wish to help. Perhaps put the equivalent amount of money aside while you sister is in prison - keep the account in your name. Then if your sister is clean when she comes out then perhaps that money you've saved will be helpful in someway to get her back on her feet when shes released. Not suggesting you give a load of money directly to her - but you'd have an amount saved if she asks for your help later down the line.

I've only read the OP responses, so sorry if this has already been mentioned. .

But don't housing associations require that the homes are not empty for x amount of time? Ergo, your sister would be in breach anyway?

DO the prison not have advice for this sort of thing I assume it is common.

And I am sorry OP, this sounds stressful on emotional and practical terms.

Lots of good points here OP.

It's important not to look at all the possibiilties - what will happen when she comes out - where will she live/will she use/what will neice do and so on....

You simply can't plan for that now. And, it's not your place anyway.

The guilt may be partly / wholly survivors guilt because your life is going well.
But you won't feel better by unfantilising your sister.

There are professionals in the prison service who have knowledge and experience to help her plan release - if she takes them up on it. There is support to avoid being homeless - if she takes it.

She has to make this change herself. Having a safety net (even it were realistic) will only postpone her having to face reality. And you know that she may never make significant changes; may not choose to or may not be able to.

If she were in a hostel with drugs around thats very hard. If she were in her flat with friends who use coming around that's hard too. You cannot make this easier for her.

The boyfriend and daughter absolutely cannot afford to do this. It will fail. And then sis will be disappointed AND you'll all be out of pocket.

It's heart wrenching for you. You love your sister.

You deserve to be your own priority though. I think you have to be honest and tell her don't think this plan will succeed and you won't be in it. Just keep it simple.

But as a pp said, tell her you want to support her, will visit if she wishes, value and love her and will be available to plan with her with the information she gets as her release date approaches.

She should sublet it

Absolutely not you should not pay. It will be a disaster as you predict and she will lose the place anyway. I know you feel guilty but you literally CANNOT help her. Keeping her children wasn’t enough to stop the drugs, losing her flat wasn’t enough to stop the drugs. Nothing you do or don’t do will make a difference. You know this. Save your money for your own children. Your primary duty is to them. If you want to help, try to help her daughter avoid the same path if you think there is a chance.

The only reason you are considering this is to assuage your conscience because you know that sadly this is not going to work and the money you spend will be wasted. Just be there for her practically when she leaves prison.... as far as you can be. It's realistically the only thing you can do. If she wants to stay clean she will whether she is in the flat or in a hostel. It's up to her.

There are far too many variables. Apart from not being a workable plan for the reasons you already foresaw, something could happen in prison that means she might end up having to serve her full sentence.
Even if it goes well and she comes out in 8 months what's stopping her from committing more crimes and going straight back to prison? I understand she wishes to keep the flat but her solution has far too many things potentially going wrong. I would tell her that you will help and support her as much as you can when she comes out but this plan isn't workable and involves too many people having to commit over a long period of time.