To say all pro-Palestinians should watch Fauda on Netflix?

[FuadaFan]

Now it is a drama about how the Israeli security services deal with the conflict but it is apparently pretty accurate and is amazingly well produced and acted.

Season 5, which covers Oct 7th has just come out after a long delay.

I've had to take a break after episode 7 because it's so distressing but it still doesn't even come close to what happened that day.

I think it's gives a clearer idea as to the truth of what has been going on and it does try to give a perspective from both sides.

I think every pro-Palestinian should watch it.

AIBU?

This. Antisemitism is a real and dreadful thing and has no place on this earth. I am sick of seeing it weaponised against people of good conscience who object to the slaughter of innocents by a democratic government.

What evidence is there that BN knew an attack was going ahead? There is evidence that he was given a very serious warning. But you've jumped from that to believing that he took the warning seriously, knew it without fail to be true, and decided to let the attack go ahead in the knowledge that he could prevent it but that he chose not to. He chose to let those kids at Nova die, the families in the kibbutzes, the IDF soldiers involved in immediate response all die, to legitimize what he planned to do in Gaza all along.

I read the same article as you and found it absolutely damning. Surely it'll mean he won't get re elected. I have no real idea why he chose to ignore the warning, like I said, hubris, arrogance, incompetence, having received several warnings previously that came to nothing, who knows? In any case Israel was caught out surprisingly unprepared and many have suffered terribly as a result. Netanyahu needs to go, whatever his reasons he's terrible for Israel. Just imo.

So you could ask yourself why 2 of us have read the same article and come to such differing conclusions about what it means. You've decided Netanyahu purposely ensured the attack went ahead, and I've assumed unacceptable failure of some kind but not jumped to that he allowed 1200 innocent people to be slaughtered and taken hostage in the worst terrorist attack on Israeli soil ever.

We can both have our inner motivations judged by how we speak.

Surely it'll mean he won't get re elected.

I wouldn't count on that.

I know. I agree. I'm concerned that those who support him are probably going to support him anyway, like the Israeli version of Trump. We'll see. I hope he goes and someone commited to peace and a future Palestinian State gets voted into power. 🙏

You are phrasing it in a more nuanced way but essentially doubling down on your accusation that believing Netanyahu chose not to pass on the warning for his own reasons can only be due to antisemitism on my part, not because I believe it to be the most rational explanation.

You are also putting words into my mouth which I didn’t say. I didn’t say he knew the attack was going ahead. I’m not sure where that’s come from. He was given a warning about an imminent serious threat, not a specific attack, and chose not to pass the information on to the people responsible for assessing threats. He didn’t need to believe it was without fail true for it be a massive failing, and quite probably deliberate decision to inflame the situation.

I’m glad that you think these revelations will cost him the election. I hope so but am not optimistic.

The question is why you believe-

"Netanyahu deliberately kept quiet to ensure the attacks went ahead to in his eyes legitimize flattening Gaza"

-to be the most rational explanation for the security failings of 7 October.

You literally are saying he deliberately kept quiet to ensure the attack went ahead. You literally used the word 'deliberate'. It's a direct quote.

I don't believe thats a rational explanation at all. I believe it's an explanation arising from prejudice.

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on my motivation for my interpretation of events just as we disagree on what we believe Netanyahu’s motivation was for not passing on the warning to Israel’s intelligence and defence chiefs.

And I'm not too dumb to see that South Africa is in bed with Hamas.

South Africa denies being allied with Hamas, but its government and ruling party face strong criticism and accusations from Israel for maintaining diplomatic and political contacts with the group, as detailed by BBC News.

High-Level Contacts: South African leaders and ruling party members have hosted Hamas delegations and held discussions over the years.
Post-October 7 Call: Former Foreign Minister Naledi Pandor spoke by phone with Hamas leadership shortly after the October 7, 2023, attacks, sparking intense domestic and international backlash.
ICJ Case Accusations: Israel accused South Africa of acting as the "legal arm" of Hamas when Pretoria launched a genocide case against Israel at the International Court of Justice

@dairydebris I don't believe that's a rational explanation at all. I believe it's an explanation arising from prejudice.

^ this with bells on.

Me too.

There's also the question of proportionality. The death toll in Gaza is now over 75,000, and that includes an awful lot of children.

You do realize that the ICC, the Chief prosecutor of which was bringing charges against Bibi until charges of sexual misconduct suddenly surfaced and he was suspended then recently dismissed, is not the court which is dealing with the South African initiated genocide case?

I feel this is a well balanced report that sheds light on the matter discussed above.

@dairydebris @FeeFiFoFiddlyFum

https://www.timesofisrael.com/arab-warnings-to-netanyahu-ahead-of-oct-7-massacre-shatter-his-core-political-defense/

"I think it's gives a clearer idea as to the truth of what has been going on and it does try to give a perspective from both sides."

This line made me laugh out loud.

😂

On one hand I really can't see how this isn't absolutely devastating for Netanyahu and on the other hand I thought Kamala was more likely to win and Brexit would never happen....

Yes.

There are children being killed in the Sudan Civil War where the death toll is now estimated at 150,000

The death toll from Myanmar's civil war has exceeded 100,000 fatalities across all sides since the February 2021 military coup, according to conflict monitors like the Armed Conflict Location & Event Data (ACLED).

Doesn't this matter to you?
Or is it when brown-skinned people kill each other that's OK but when pale skinned people do it that's suddenly a war-crime?

Did you really just mean to say the only reason for that posters objection is because it is 'pale skinned' Israelis doing the killing?

Wow.

I prefer to get information from credible sources. Unfortunately Israel has assassinated so many journalists (along with healthcare professionals and aid workers) working in Gaza this is a challenge.

Well I don’t get your point then

Of course they matter. But Sudan and Myanmar are military juntas and that's what you expect of them. Israel is a democracy and as such expected to uphold basic standards by not committing genocide and claiming it's self defence.

..... and we are back to expecting different behaviors from different peoples...

We expect more from Israel because they are not a military junta, they are a democracy, they are Western, they have suffered a genocide so they shouldn't do a genocide... nope.

Israelis / Jews are people the same as everyone else. Just as likely to have shit politicians. Just as likely to commit war crimes. Just as likely to have extremist fringe of society.

This whole 'Israel is worse than everyone else ( insert reason here )" is just the newest and for some reason most socially acceptable form of antisemitism.

Criticise Israel all you want. But the moment you start exceptionalising them as uniquely awful, especially when its clear you haven't taken into account historical reasons for present circumstances, you've lapsed into prejudice.

It's absolutely mind blowing to me that people openly hold Israel to a higher standard than other nations / races. It's open antisemitism. It's also deeply infantilizing to the architects of the Sudan conflict and the Burmese military. Why do they get a pass on their actions? Are they toddlers? Less intellectually capable? Less civilized?

I genuinely don’t understand why people make posts like this.

1. We’re on a thread about Israel and the Palestinians, so that’s who people are going to be talking about.

2. The poster you replied to was talking about proportionality. How many people are dying in other conflicts is completely irrelevant to whether Israel’s response is proportional.

3. The question of whether war crimes are being committed or however you want to describe the decimation of the Palestinian population by Israel is not related to the skin colours or races of the people involved. No-one else has indicated they think it relevant and frankly, it’s odd that you do.

I don’t think your exceptionalism argument works.

Do you ever criticise the UK or US governments for actions which you don’t criticise other countries for? For example, (and I’m making assumptions here but insert you own if this doesn’t fit) have you ever complained about the death penalty in the US, or the shootings in the US by the police or the poor treatment of black people? Or failures of welfare provision in these countries? Or poor treatment of women?

All these things happen to a far, far greater extent in other countries. So, whilst it’s to be expected that people will legitimately criticise their own country, if you are British, for example, why do you criticise the US for the death sentence rather than say Korea? Why discuss women’s rights in America and not Chad? Why complain about welfare failures in the US but not in Costa Rica?

Accord to your logic, if you criticise the US (if you’re British) more than you criticise other countries, it’s because of prejudice and racial hatred.

Unless you’re saying your logic doesn’t work for other countries, only Israel, in which case that is exceptionalism.

I think the poster was saying that Israel is being held to the standards set by international law however, it was unexpected that a fellow western, democratic country that is well acquainted with the horrors of genocide would go on to engage in warfare concerning enough such that a case alleging genocide is currently under review by the ICJ and 3 of its leaders currently have arrest warrants from the ICC for war crimes.

They’re talking more about the prejudice against non western countries and leaders for being who we usually expect to violate international law and human rights to such a degree in today’s world.

I certainly haven’t seen criticism of Israel as exceptionalising Israel as the worst ever nor do I think Israel is being held to a higher standard than everyone else.