To think that "difficult" people are life's winners?

[MargoLivebetter]

I realise that "difficult" is a bit vague, so what I mean here is people who are demanding, domineering, strongly opinionated, lack self-awareness, self-serving, uncompromising, combabitive, say it as it is etc ......

To think that all those qualities stand you in better stead than being considerate, kind, self-aware, able to compromise, polite, reflective, tolerant etc.

I just can't see how unless I move to a Buddhist community the later serves me well!

Define "success." If you mean forcing and elbowing your way to the top of a greasy pole at the expense of all professional and personal relationships, or chasing money for the entirety of your life whilst never being at home, neglecting your family and alienating people with your blunt egotism then I'd rather be an empath. And keep my harmonious, quality relationships.

I have had many dealings with the arrogant, ego-driven "I don't care what other's think" sort. I personally give them as wide a berth as possible. The focus is narrow, the goal is selfish and they will hurt you if you get too close to them. They are not civil, or considerate and neither do you feature on their radar. You are at best, a commodity, to be used and kicked into the shrubbery when your value is over and you are no longer of any use to them.

At worst, you are someone weak (they mistake kindness for weakness because they have no emotional intelligence) and they will try and bully you into submission. You will feel unheard, unseen, uncared for. And that's because you are. They have a tendency to destroy people who are close to them and end up wondering why they are alone. Often, by that point in their lives, it's too late.

Newsflash - you can be materialistically successful and also kind and not belong to the unpleasant elbow-shoving crowd. But ego-driven motivation is ugly and obvious, and it doesn't take long to show. Because people like this don't care what you think - until they need you that is. So, long-term, as a strategy, it delivers a degree of materialistic success. But certainly at the expense of something far greater and of more value.

Close relationships with family members. Connected, where you can be very much yourself. There doesn’t need to be any performance. You love the person and receive love back, in a warm and reciprocal manner. Your family members want to see you, they don’t see you purely out of fear, obligation, manipulation or guilt. You have friends who enrich your life with care, activities and fun. Not “frenemies” or competitive friends. A marriage that is long lasting, enduring, emotionally safe. Honestly, the list is endless.

Not everyone “achieves” the above. Narcissistic people most certainly do not.

They may not care too much about being emotionally connected, but they don’t get off Scott free. Ultimately narcissists do crave relational supply and admiration…. If this dries up, or it’s not genuine, then they can feel the following

They may miss:

• Admiration.
• Feeling important or needed.
• Having an audience.
• Having people validate their identity.

Rather than saying, “I miss genuine closeness,” they may experience:

• Boredom.
• Emptiness.
• Feeling ignored.
• Resentment that people don’t visit or call enough.
• A sense that they’ve been abandoned or unappreciated.

The underlying pain is often less about mutual intimacy and more about losing sources of validation (sometimes called “narcissistic supply”). How it might look behaviourally In late adulthood they might:

• Frequently complain that nobody visits.
• Tell people their children are selfish or ungrateful.
• Create crises to get attention.
• Become more demanding because independence is declining.
• Constantly reminisce about when everyone admired or relied on them.
• Become depressed or bitter as ageing removes status, beauty, career success or influence.

What’s often striking is that they may not recognise that years of one-sided relationships contributed to the emotional distance.

The key distinction is that the distress is often centred on the loss of attention, significance, control, or validation rather than the mutual emotional connection that characterises secure relationships.

They may not care too much, but I truly don’t think they end up happy and fulfilled. It is not a life I would aspire too, even in their arrogance, lack of humility and huge blind spots.

This sounds very much like my manager, who has made everybody's lives hell for 40+ years (and counting). He is nothing more than a bully, doesn't listen to anyone else, and nobody trusts him. We fear that we will have to wait for him to die, as it seems more likely than him retiring at any time soon 😳

This is interesting. I think yes and no.

Yes, in the short term. People who are difficult are often appeased and get their own way. Are these people others gravitate to in later in life? No. Not really.

I tend to be the opposite. My instinct is to smooth things over. Often putting my own needs last. I don’t think this is particularly healthy either though.

I’m interested in the comments saying that being difficult only works short term. I know plenty of people in their 7th decade and beyond who have been difficult and continue to be so. I don’t think they care whether it makes them a good friend or someone that other people would want to spend time with. Without a doubt some would be at the grandiose narcissist end of the spectrum but not all.

They are people who have had successful careers or long marriages, they are financially secure, they can afford to enjoy activities that bring them pleasure. Some still have considerable influence either in the commercial world or in their communities.

I’m in my mid 50s and I see acquaintances (not necessarily friends) who’ve I’ve known for decades to be considered difficult and they are not socially isolated ghouls regretting their actions in some grey miserable twilight. They’re thriving!

Some posters have mentioned happiness and said that these types of people aren’t happy. But who’s permanently happy? No one!

Thank you for all the thoughts so far.

People have different motivations. Some people’s priority is getting their own way and they aren’t very concerned about the quality of their relationships.
Other people lean more towards valuing relationships and wouldn’t be happy knowing that their family resented and disliked them. Some people value their self respect and couldn’t be happy knowing that they were dominating everyone else.
When things get out of balance and someone is willing to tolerate anything to keep other people happy it leads to unhappiness and they can be ill treated.
People getting everything their own way by dominating or manipulating might look as if it’s working and they might be satisfied with it but most people wouldn’t want to live that way.
There’s a balance of being fair to yourself and to other people, being assertive but being prepared to make sacrifices where appropriate and to compromise.

Someone can be ‘difficult’ and have those relationships with people they care about, who they are not considered ‘difficult’ by at all.

What makes someone happy also isn’t universal, and I think people often project their own ideas as to what would make them happy, and assume that those that don’t have those things must be unhappy. What one person aspires to as the pinnacle of achievement, is going to be another person’s vision of hell.

I don’t see it like this. I think those people lack genuine connections with people in their lives. They are seen as challenging, frustrating and people don’t really want to be with them, they do it out of duty. For me, there is nothing more important than the richness of the relationships in my life. I think those people end up very lonely.

What do you define as ‘winning’? I guess some are and some aren’t. If you’re talking about money, success and good fortune, then not necessarily.

My BIL is definitely the former of what you describe. He’s a horrible person. Yet very well off and successful.

My DH is also very well off and successful, but is the nicest, most down to earth man you’ll ever meet.

I've seen those people get up the career ladder many times. Those who give a shit and are conscientious are the mugs, including me.

@Didimum for me 'winning' would look like having the freedom to do what you enjoy. Clearly no one can achieve that all the time and what one person enjoys will vary hugely from another person. But I think you have "won" in some way at life, if you have had the opportunity to do what you enjoy.

That’s still quite vague. That freedom either comes from earning a lot of money, inheriting a lot of money or foregoing convention and living off grid or at least off the beaten path in some way. Or perhaps just falling into it by sheer luck.

That’s an enormous array of people. How do you class them all as ‘difficult’? Or why?

My view is that what you describe is different. Strong advocacy and tenacity and expecting standards from those providing services is a different thing to those being described by OP. I think most people know a difference between the two.

A lot of that comes from being born into money.

@Didimum and @LuckyHazelFox a couple of thoughts there. Firstly, I think you are probably more likely to be 'difficult' (as in my initial definition in my first post) if you are born wealthy. Secondly, it will also depend to some extent on what it is you enjoy doing. Some people enjoy spending time with their family or baking. You don't need to be born rich to do those things, you just need time.

Only a bit

Your connections and perceived social standing matter more

Saw it all played out over 27 years of marriage. My FIL had narcissistic personality disorder and was the awkward bugger whose wife and daughter ran round trying to appease. Whole house was on eggshells but as years went by and his wife became frailer and he became more "no one visits me etc". I asked about friends...he had only had 1 back in the 1960s. When he was very ill in hospital his kids only went in once and when the hospital called to say he had passed there was no sadness.. Only immediate famy at funeral.. So no I don't think they are life winners

Is it a inherent thing or a learnt thing to be nasty and horrible to achieve your goals at the expense of other people. I've been trying on and off for 50 odd years and just can't deliberately do something hurtful to someone to achieve an objective, either at work or in personal relationships. There's plenty of people I have met that I don't like in life, but I've never eliberately done something to them, or anyone, nasty just to further my aims. Neither has my partner in the 35 years we've been together.
How do people feel after they've done it. Does it make them feel a sense of achievement or do they just not even think about it and move on. I would have strong boundaries about how people treat me and my family but would never plot my 'success' to the detriment of others.
Though I won't stay in the company of people who are gleeful of people they know's misfortune. All of us are only one life event away from catastrophic misfortune.

I have one child (oldest) who fits some of your description, and he does seem to ‘win’ just because of his attitude. Tonight , for example, we were out with family for a meal. There was one poppadum left in the basket. DH offered it round the table to the children first. The other two said no thank you, so DS1 shrugged, said thanks and took it. Knowing the other two they probably said no to be polite and DS1 called their bluff and took them at their word.

i actually do worry about him more than the younger, quieter, kinder and more considerate one. DS1 is likely to piss people off once they tire of his self serving nature, and he’s quite hard work / bit of Drama llama. Great fun, always to for a laugh, gift of the gab - but self serving. DS2 otoh spotted that his granddad was struggling to move something in the garden today, and ran out to help straight away. But because he’s quiet, shy etc he gets overlooked all the time.

What a vague and pointless musing.

If they make enough money they can buy friends so won't die alone.

Surely you need to coach your younger two to be more assertive. If they wanted the poppadom they should have spoken up. Have you trained them to "be polite" in this way? If you have you have done them a disservice.

😂why thank you!

I don't know. I knew someone who is one of those people who people describe as "life and soul of the party" although I always found rather arrogant and up themselves, but I assumed I was in the minority.

They moved away about 20 miles, and I don't see them now, but I do come across people that know them (there's a reason why they come up).
I'd say about 25% people think they are wonderful. 25% think they are pretty nasty bullies who hide behind "it's just the way they are" to get away with it and the rest put up with them, assume they're popular and well liked but find them a bit too much/think they're not really that nice.

However I will note that about 5 years after moved away and they made contact with us (they only do if they want something) and suggested that we shared babysitting. Dh, who can be very blunt, laughed and asked why on earth we'd ask someone 20 miles away when we can ask one of many people we know locally (they never offered when we were local, and they had their dc after moving away).
They admitted that they couldn't find anyone local who would do it - despite presenting their lifestyle as a constant throng of people who adored them.

So I concluded that even the 25% who thought they were wonderful is very superficial and they don't really have true friends who would do favours for them - and tbf I doubt they ever do favours for anyone else if they don't get something out of it; they certainly never did when they lived locally.

Yes and no. There are difficult people like the ones I encounter as customers who look for every potential problem and try to ‘catch you out’ with technicalities, these people get the bare minimum because you know they’re going to complain whatever you do so why bother trying. Then there are the people who put themselves first rather than ‘being kind’ - these people get what they want because they take it unapologetically.