To think that "difficult" people are life's winners?

[MargoLivebetter]

I realise that "difficult" is a bit vague, so what I mean here is people who are demanding, domineering, strongly opinionated, lack self-awareness, self-serving, uncompromising, combabitive, say it as it is etc ......

To think that all those qualities stand you in better stead than being considerate, kind, self-aware, able to compromise, polite, reflective, tolerant etc.

I just can't see how unless I move to a Buddhist community the later serves me well!

@TaleOfTwoHalves "If you are a kind and empathic person you will have much more emotionally nourishing relationships." - will you? How is that measured?

Lots of people do like trump though, over 77 million people voted for him at the last election.

He is a terrible example of how being a dick doesn't get you anywhere because precisely the opposite has happened to him - he's been a dick and he's become the most powerful man in the world!

No one can truly measure every human experience.

I think we need to separate two issues here.

If you are kind, empathetic, but you are also a person with invisible boundaries, and you are essentially a doormat, you invite all manner of nefarious and exploitative personalities into your life. I also think these personalities aren’t as kind and empathic as that they think they are. Many of them “need to be needed”. Many of them are martyrs. They have MASSIVE blind spots themselves in regards to their own “kind natures”.

Which leads me to the next kind and empathic person. One who actually has boundaries and isn’t walked all over. One who doesn’t need to be needed and simply just enjoys reciprocal relationships. It is the latter type of kind person who tends to have better relationships with their own children, friends and whatnot. That ultimately leads to a more enriching and emotionally more connected lifestyle.

Exactly this. My father has a lot of children that won't visit him when he is old, a situation entirely of his own making even if he doesn't see it that way.

I agree, OP. Being nice or kind is all lovely, and wonderful traits to have and extoll, but never got me that far career wise or in life.

I'm not advocating being angry, aggressive or bad/stupid, but I'm seeing more that confidence, assertiveness and a growth mindset coupled with intelligence is key. Cue my eldest DD, who has all of this in spades - alongside a sparkling personality with a 'je ne sais quoi' x-factor added, and she will be on track to being a heck of a lot more productive and successful than me.

Being nice as pie is lovely but it probably wont make you a millionaire or at the top of your game!

Depends on what you mean by ‘difficult’, tbh. It also depends on who they’re being difficult with. A cheeky fucker who isn’t just being appeased is going to consider the person not giving them what they want to be ‘difficult’, after all.

It’s also one of those terms that is perceived differently depending on whether it’s being used about a woman or about a man. Not that it’s commonly used about men ime - what will get a woman called ‘difficult’ will have a man described using more flattering adjectives.

Being ‘difficult’ isn’t an inherently negative trait. Like with most traits, that’s dependent largely on how it’s deployed. I’d say people that know how to read a situation and know when being ‘difficult’ is likely to be advantageous to them, are indeed more likely to be successful.

Depends what you think of as success I guess. And what you mean by difficult!

I do believe in have boundaries, for waiting for a direct question rather than over offering f yourself and to saying yes or no freely depending on whether it works for you.

But I also believe that you protect yourself from bitterness by forgiving (but not forgetting) where you can, on being basically kind to those around you in ordinary ways (eg waiting for someone to cross the road or something basic like that) and concentrating on the things you love rather than on what you hate.

So a mixture I guess!

Works for BIL, he’s a millionaire businessman.

Another friend is a beautiful soul, works for him. I think it just depends on the person.

I do too.
In my own example, it works with their friends who are similar and their partner who really doesn't care much about things. However, over time I've resented them walking all over me in the past and now have mega boundaries with them, which i don't have with anyone else at all, i bend over backwards for everyone else. They really receive what they give out, in terms of my relationship with them.
This person prides themselves on getting things exactly how they want, without noticing that they miss out on lovely relationships with people who give them the swerve.

This thread reminds me of my MIL, she treats everyone badly but I think it took a long time for people to become wise to it as she also had a seemingly sweet side (which was likely also being used to manipulate). She's now older and her family want nothing to do with her as she's so bad for everyone's mental health. She would have looked like a winner originally but she's certainly not winning now!

Some people are so difficult no-one wants to be around them at all. There’s a disabled autistic bloke in my village who was in an accident when he was 18. He’s 65 now. If you talk to him at all you get a monologue about how other people hate him and how difficult his life is.

he’s not wrong but most people don’t want to be around him for more than ten minutes.

there’s a sweet spot.

@TaleOfTwoHalves even after your explanation I am still wondering how you measure an "enriched and emotionally connected lifestyle"?

I also can't help wondering if a demanding, domineering, strongly opinionated, lacking self-awareness, self-serving, uncompromising, combabitive person gives a flying fig about having enriched and emotionally connected lifestyles.

People who have inner confidence, are clever, and know what they want are life's winners.

There is a big difference between being assertive and confident, which is a good thing, and being a difficult, demanding, rude and selfish person.

I don't want to work, socialise or generally have to put up with the bullshit from anyone I consider to be 'difficult'.

Whereas I’m not bothered about spending time with ‘nice’. ‘Nice’ is pretty widespread. Clever, thoughtful, forceful, strong-minded — those are more interesting to me.

’Nice’ is the most milquetoast of descriptions, so much so that if anything it’s offensive in its inoffensiveness.

It’s what you say when you’ve been asked to describe someone and you don’t want to use ‘bland and uninteresting’.

Whether someone is assertive or rude, or whether they’re selfish or unwilling to be taken advantage of, is very often entirely in the eye of the beholder.

Oh god no! Difficult people are definitely life’s losers.theres zero happiness in being difficult.
happy people arent difficult.

I agree with all of those traits you've described, apart from forceful. Assertive, yes, forceful, probably not. Someone who has a balanced yet assertive view on things is probaby much more amenable than one with a forceful nature.

If soneone had a difference of opinion to me, I'm more than happy to listen with an open mind, but not they forced their opinion on me with great aplomb.

Jon Ronson iirc concluded that many CEOs had psychopathic tendencies 😁
It all comes down to whether you mean winning is akin to power and wealth.
And whether by having a teflon narcissistic layer, these people are protected from anxiety, lack of confidence or emotional needs.
But winning to others might just be that you see beauty in your surroundings, look at the glass half full, aren't remotely competitive and enjoy inner peace.

There is a fine line between being assertive and being a dickhead.
I’ve experienced some awful managers during my working life but as time goes on you hear, oh johns wife left him or Pamela got made redundant
every dog has its day as they say

It's true that difficult people get their way more often because they put themselves front and centre and they get noticed/listened to and people let them have their own way because they are forced to listen and/or want a quiet life.

But there's also some truth in that in some ways they are life's lovers because they never seem happy. My MIL (RIP) was probably the most difficult person I've ever met. Her demanding and entitled nature meant she had a pretty amazing life but she never seemed happy with it. Always making complaints, falling out with people who didn't bow down to her views, controlling her husband and adult kids with tantrums that went on and on and later trying to control her adult kids and their partners with money (always with tight strings attached). I used to think bloody hell it must be exhausting being her, no wonder she's never happy!
When i met my husband and witnessed her antics I asked how she got away with it. The answer: is just easier to let her have her way, she will just go on and on otherwise.

It didn't serve her well long term. Her friends got offended and stopped seeing her (she was hurt and astonished, no idea why!) Three out of four of her kids "failed to launch" because they didn't know how to have lives of their own. I went LC with her after she deliberately tried to ruin our wedding when I wouldn't let her control the guest list, this meant she then had fairly limited access to our children. She was an alcoholic and it led her to an early grave.

So difficult people are "winners" and "losers" on different sides of the coin.

I agree with the poster who said the best way to be is generally amenable (because why not, if it doesn't hurt you to be nice, just be nice) but protect your own goals and boundaries, so it's not a bad thing to be assertive or even "difficult" when you actually need to be. There is a lot of grey area between bully and doormat!

Yep. I’ve often thought it must be weirdly nice to be a twat with no conscience and genuinely not give a shit about others.

I have a now ex friend who is currently
shagging our friends ex ( not yet divorced)

she is a self serving dominant character who is pushy and plots and plans in a cold way to get the life style she wants

and it looks like she will get it

No I don’t agree.
I have known difficult people as you have described, and it really has not worked out well for them in the long run.

I often observe that you can behave really badly and as long as internally you can live with it every one else puts up with it. However I think extremes at either end don’t work, and that’s whether the horrible people end of the spectrum or the people pleasing, martyring, passive aggressive end who you see on here a lot. And I know the latter can be a trauma response, as I suppose can be the former.

sometimes the people who are seen as horrible, selfish aren’t, they are just direct and say no to stuff. I do not mean the „I tell it how I see it „ bunch in that, they are just rude. Meanwhile the passive people pleasers are absolutely riddled with resentment. As someone who tends towards people pleaser which is a manipulation tactic, I think it’s good to learn from the horrible ones!