To think that "difficult" people are life's winners?

[MargoLivebetter]

I realise that "difficult" is a bit vague, so what I mean here is people who are demanding, domineering, strongly opinionated, lack self-awareness, self-serving, uncompromising, combabitive, say it as it is etc ......

To think that all those qualities stand you in better stead than being considerate, kind, self-aware, able to compromise, polite, reflective, tolerant etc.

I just can't see how unless I move to a Buddhist community the later serves me well!

If one partner is difficult (demanding, domineering, strongly opinionated, lack self-awareness, self-serving, uncompromising, combative...), I'd say divorce would actually be a pretty successful outcome for the non-difficult partner.

I didn’t vote as I wanted to tick both.

Your list sounded like narcissism.

Firstly, YANBU. Society does reward narcissism and the person can get “away with it” quite successfully for years. Exploiting family, relationships and jobs etc. So, yes I do agree.

Secondly YABU, because…… narcissism sure isn’t pretty in late adulthood and old age. It is particularly grim actually in old age. Many end up incredibly miserable despite material gain along the way. They need relational supply and by the time the narc is washed up and the good looks, deception and charm has faded away. Family and friends have long clocked on and boundaries have been set…. Apart from a few suckers, the narcs world becomes very narrow and they don’t spend their days in peace.

I have seen it in my family...my sister is the wild card. Outgoing, talks about herself the whole time, and unpredictable (anger). Everyone tiptoes around her and tries to keep her happy. I'm the one who remembers to ask everyone how they are, listens more than talks and have the least dramatic life out of the whole family, and nobody is ever worried about upsetting me!

I think if people are too dominant other people can come to resent them. Being too passive just encourages everyone to walk all over you though.

@Anonymouseposter I'm sure other people do resent them, but I wonder how that matters?

From experience being kind, empathetic, tolerant and generous has gotten me walked over and taken for a fool by difficult, demanding, self-victimising, self-absorbed family members.

Have I learnt my lesson - I hope so!

Some people think I'm difficult. I have SEN children and have to fight very hard to get the support they're legally entitled too. If getting what they should have makes me difficult, so be it.

Well better than being a cunt 🤷‍♂️

It's quite possible to be a lovely person without being a soaking wet lettuce and allowing others to walk over you.

But the very same attitude will reap rewards when it comes to other like minded, kind, family members? I do get it, those people can be few and far between in many families and sometimes non existant, but then surely you can build on that good nature with your own nuclear family, or your own friendship choices? You will then reap the rewards for what you have nurtured and built.

Sounds like you’ve put some boundaries in with toxic family members. You are not a form of their supply anymore, so they’ll have to seek new sources.

Also, being overly empathetic can be a childhood adaptation to complex family backgrounds. You don’t need to be walked over anymore. You can use your empathy and good nature in a way that will serve you, in the long run.

But if you are not self-reflective or approval seeking why would you care if other people think you are cunt or not? How are all the qualities we think of as making you a lovely person serve you better?

I think you're conflating a bunch of different qualities. I am absolutely unapologetic about prioritising myself, and I think far more women would be happier if they did so. I am absolutely combative when called for, I hold opinions I'm happy to debate and defend. I put my work first when I need to. I don't think I'm any more demanding/intolerant/unself-reflective than anyone else, though. I'm certainly far less demanding than many a people-pleaser in my vicinity, the type who says 'Don't mind me, I'll sit in the dark' but actually expects you to know they're only saying that 'to be polite', and you're supposed to guess what they really mean, while they seethe with unexpressed resentment that you're not psychic.

However, I think you're mistaken in thinking that women who are opinionated and self-focused 'lack self-awareness', because by 'self-awareness' you mean 'be nice because you worry about whether people will like you if you aren't'. I don't worry at all about what people in general think of me, because it is a total waste of my time. I have lots of good, strong, lifelong friends around me, I'm a good friend, a decent parent, a decent wife, a good daughter, someone who volunteers, is interested in people, and who gives back to the world in whatever way I can.

Being mimsy and meek does not make you good. Someone you consider 'dominating' is just as likely to be a good person. You just resent that they don't creep around performing 'niceness' for the benefit of other people.

I agree. Superficially it might look like they have many relationships - but they are not experiencing emotional intimacy. They are not emotionally trusted by others. They are tolerated and managed at emotional arms length for various reasons - money, family ‘harmony’, power etc - that’s not a satisfactory or sustainable emotional status. having someone like this in your circle / family on eggshells so they don’t kick off so from the outside and superficially they look to have friends - but there is no trusted mutual reciprocity going on - no real emotional connection.

Absolutely. Mn is dominated by a particular type of wet lettuce whining about people asking them to do things/exploiting them/relying on them, but whose problems could all be solved by no longer being a wet lettuce.

Thank you. I will take your words onboard.

My old boss used to say that he always tried to be the most difficult person in the room. He thought that meant everyone would go out of their way to upset other people before him. I think it worked in some contexts but I personally don't like being a dick.

Yes, definitely helps if they have a charming public face.

The OP's post describes Trump perfectly and he is certainly a winner when it comes to wealth.

Being difficult only converts to ‘winning’ if the person has charisma. I’ve known numerous difficult people for whom life is a string of fallings out, grievance and disciplinary procedures at work, formal complaints and so on, doggedly fighting the world and thinking everyone else is the problem. They all share the traits of being abrasive, intense and pedantic, and as a result people just didn’t warm to them. They didn’t seem like they were enjoying life, but we’re constantly frustrated at how unfair/crap/wrong/unwilling to do as told everyone else was.

I think many of us were socialised in abusive and misogynistic families and cultures. It’s a survival method in trauma/ chaos (fawn) to keep the peace - which as a child was relevant. It’s hard to unlearn our programming and I thank all the women here who have helped me move out of people-pleasing. I think we should all be trying to raise each other up with encouragement.

And using polite, firm, adult words.

I understand. You are talking about a highly defended individual where self reflection doesn’t happen. I do believe they seek admiration though, not necessarily approval.

They seek relational power and supply. Sometimes it takes age to catch up with them and they start to lose out on those things.

Sometimes because they lack self reflection - they simply have NO idea why they are so chronically restless and empty inside - even though outward appearances don’t portray that. They can have it all but feel so chronically dissatisfied inside. Moments of true internal joy can be very few and far between. They have this inner restlessness about them…

I totally understand where you’re coming from though.

If you are a kind and empathic personal you will have much more emotionally nourishing relationships. Not ones built on fear, obligation and guilt. They look the same externally. Internally they feel very different.

I was raised in exactly that type of family. My sister and I took one look at the women around us and decided that, no matter what the cost, we weren't going to live those lives. It is possible, with a lot of effort, to unpick childhood scripts.

You're looking at two extremes. You can be assertive, ambitious and a leader whilst still being fair, considerate and empathetic.

Do you mean they get their own way by the quickest route being miserable, rude and authoritarian? but nobody likes these type of people. Trump is a prime example. Self serving and damn everyone else.

I agree and I have. With a lot of effort. But I also have compassion for others still stuck in that place of fear / expectation and offer them some insight and a helping hand.