to think a lot of men will not marry if they already get everything?

[Pinkshocks]

If he is already getting everything on a plate, a committed partner, a sexual relationship, children, someone to split the bills with, emotional support and a family life, all without making any legal or lifelong commitment, why would he change anything?

I know this does NOT apply to every couple or to ALL men. Some people genuinely do not want to marry and both are happy with that. But if one person wants marriage and the other keeps putting it off year after year, are they really going to change when they are already getting everything they want?

Why would someone buy the ticket when they are already getting the whole show for free?

Women come out of divorce financially worse off than men and it takes much longer for them to recover their position, if they ever do. It's known as the divorce gap.

Individual anecdotes do not prove that a tenet is anything other than a misogynistic stereotype. Yours is based on the idea that women want to have children much more than men do (if men do at all) and that women are inherently duplicitous and trick unsuspecting men using their biology. What in this is not sexist?

Hmmm, I'm not sure if I agree with that, especially if the woman is the higher earner.
I was the higher earner in my first marriage and put a lot more into it financially. The only reason my exH agreed to an equitable division was because OW was pushing him to settle so they could set up house and play 'happy families' together.

I don't care if you think it's sexist or not.
I've had 35 years of empirical evidence in a very large organisation that says it's common.
I didn't say all women are sneaky and manipulative.

It's evidenced.

https://www.pennymatters.co.uk/mind-the-divorce-gap/

Of course theyre worse off, the majority of women are still paid less, still end up for the most part doing most of the parenting when separated and, if some of the posts I read are anything to go by, the amount of money paid to mothers for their children isnt sufficient. Men have got more shrewd about hiding their worth and so have hidden their assets or wangle it to say theyre being paid less. If they see the writing on the wall in the relationship they will have been getting their ducks in a row too.

It doesnt negate the fact though that something is better than the absolutely nothing they would get from being evicted from their home with no claim at all to a shared portion of the house , no pension contributions and or poor job prospects if they've been sahms for the last 10 to 15 years.

I have a dear friend who got married four years ago after two kids and being together 21 years.

They had a small registry ceremony in the UK followed by a large informal celebration abroad. This had a vows ceremony, speeches & a wedding breakfast. Their two daughters were bridesmaids.

The eldest (17) gave a speech saying she thought she was going to get married before her parents did. The bride gave a speech saying she’d waited 20 years for this day and thought it was never going to happen. The groom gave a speech saying he had thought about it for years but it had never seemed the right moment.

It was absolutely heartbreaking.

Here was a beautiful woman, both inside & out, who successfully ran her own business, raised two wonderful girls and yet had been kept dangling with the promise of a wedding that she really wanted but that she doubted very much would ever happen.

A year or so before the engagement she’d been thinking of leaving. Her partner’s business was facing difficulties, the liquidators were pursuing him for £manyK as they dissolved his company, he was talking about selling the house and moving to the countryside, even put it on the market for a while, because it was cheaper (she’s a committed city girl) and she felt unappreciated and unloved. She only held on because her youngest was 15 and she didn’t want to interrupt her schooling.

She told me she broke down, the last few years she’d started drinking too much and got a wake-up call looking at our photos of a girls weekend away. She hit the gym and started to make plans to leave. She felt better than ever and (her words) ‘knew she was worth more’. She worked her socks off building up her business in anticipation of going it alone, so successful she ended up taking on more staff. Then came the proposal.

We celebrated with her abroad. All singing, laughing, dancing, sightseeing and partying. Family & friends saying how lovely it is to see them finally married, never thought he would commit etc etc. Ha ha, how funny. Lovely joke.

But my heart breaks for her. She’s got the ring, the change of surname, the title of ‘wife’. Those speeches at the wedding did it for me. Her friends knew she wanted to marry, her daughters knew she wanted to marry, he knew she wanted to marry, his family knew she wanted to marry, but he kept her waiting 20 years.

He didn’t want to marry her until it looked like she was gaining self-confidence and getting ready to leave. She says it was because she was the problem - hitting the gym, taking up running & losing weight gave her confidence & she learnt to laugh again. But she was all those things for the first 15 years of their relationship & he still didn’t want to marry her.

Every year on her wedding anniversary she posts the same thing: a photo or video from the wedding and the caption ‘best day of my life’. Her social media profile is still of the two of them walking back down the aisle.

His isn’t.

Yes, there are women who don’t want to marry, some divorced, some happily unwed forever. This isn’t about them.

The OP specifically mentioned women who want to marry but whose partners don’t although they say they do. The women wait and wait but the wedding never happens.

My friend used to say ‘Oh, we don’t need to get married, it’s just a piece of paper’, but after a glass or two of wine she’d admit she did want to marry, very much, but it was her partner who was reluctant. Not now, not this week, not this month. But yes, sometime he would, but not now, the time wasn’t right. So she waited. Because at some point he’d realise he loved her enough to marry her, right?

Anecdotal "evidence" .

Do you not understand that when I say you're perpetuating a stereotype, that's different to saying you claim all women are XYZ? Anecdotes don't prove anything.

Looks like I'd better go to Specsavers then 🙄

Yes, marriage is still based on patriarchal norms and assumptions that ultimately underpin the consequences of divorce. That's not really an argument for marriage per se. Better for anyone entering a partnership, man or woman, to ensure solid legal protection above and beyond what might be offered by marriage.

Why? Will they help you understand that a small and unrepresentative sample does not prove the "truth" of an outdated misogynistic trope?

You seem very angry and invested in this topic.

Are you OK ?

Its still a legal contract. Its either will you marry me ...or will you sign this contract that says you wont screw me over if we split up.

Yes thank you.

Honestly I think unless you are the full time working breadwinner and own the house, it’s not worth gambling on your future security and that of your children not to get married.
a close friend found this out when left high and dry by her philandering partner. He left her and the four kids with nothing, not even their family home. He was earning over £100k, he’d persuaded her to give up her career.
being married at least gives you some protection legally.

Yes! I express no view on marriage. Despite the knowledge that it's an institution that's based in and replicates patriarchy, I'm married myself 🤣. A pragmatic and situation specific decision on my part. I just reject the sexist stereotypes that I listed above. I think this thread was based on a sexist premise and, as I've said, people certainly haven't held back in expressing sexist views.

If the op has been about relationships where people have mismatched views and aims, it would have been an entirely different thing.

I’m a woman and my partner’s a man. No kids.

I’ve never wanted to get married and that hasn’t changed as I’ve got older.

Helpful contribution to the thread.

So do you just half commit? Or give them half of your sense of humour? Hold back some of the love?

What is it that women should be keeping from their men to make themselves even more appealing as wives?

Helpful response to a commenter…why so chewy?

I would love it if we had a less sexist power imbalance in society but sadly women are still victims of the long well established patriarchal systems.

Thanks to mother nature women are on a time limit for having babies and currently we are the only ones who can physically birth them. Men on the other hand can still be sowing their seed for decades after a woman has hit the menopause so they can move on to another relationship with less angst.

As much as we may object to, not agree with and feel things are not fair for women..when it comes to securing our future we need do what's on offer culturally now....cover your own back and likely your children's too by getting married or contracted up, just dont leave your prospects in the hands of a man...there are too many stories that suggest they are -'unreliable'.

Im a woman and i have never been intrested in marriage.

Marriage is betting half your assets like your home, savings, pension etc that you will be together forever.
A relationship takes 2 to make it work. I can be sure that I will be respectful, honest, loyal etc, but i can't be certain that my partner will. Learnt this the hard way when my engagement and 5 1/2 year relationship ended in February.

So no, i would not ever marry now, because it is just too big of a gamble on an uncertainty. Getting out of a marriage takes time, effort and you lose so much, probably your home, your future security etc. I'd rather be in a 40+ year relationship and never marry, because if they do something i cannot forgive, i can walk away with everything that was already mine, still mine. I can see 100% why anyone would choose this path, gender irrelevant.

But yes, in society it does tend to be men with 1 foot out the door whilst the woman wants marriage, as especially when theres kids involved the man is typically the better empolyed higher earner with better pension etc to "protect".

Yes I do agree with that. I don't agree with a lot of what's been said on this thread - actually I've found it pretty horrifying to think that it might be general consensus. I don't believe it really is though. But certainly, women would be wise to protect themselves.

Ive never really been interested in marriage either...even less so when ltr man slept with other people. 😂

I think the point is that whether youre interested or not in the Mr and Mrs status just dont relinquish all your power to be in the relationship without ensuring youre protected financially and practically.