to think a lot of men will not marry if they already get everything?

[Pinkshocks]

If he is already getting everything on a plate, a committed partner, a sexual relationship, children, someone to split the bills with, emotional support and a family life, all without making any legal or lifelong commitment, why would he change anything?

I know this does NOT apply to every couple or to ALL men. Some people genuinely do not want to marry and both are happy with that. But if one person wants marriage and the other keeps putting it off year after year, are they really going to change when they are already getting everything they want?

Why would someone buy the ticket when they are already getting the whole show for free?

What makes you think these men who refuse to get married would have done so if they weren’t having sex or didn’t have children with these women? Apart from delusion.

I think @SummerDive and I are saying broadly similar things. It’s not a man/woman thing, it’s people who feel they need more security than just love who tend to push for marriage. As women are now beginning to earn more and be more independent than they were in the past, it’s not so important to them.

I know relationships where the man is desperate to get married and for several reasons...not love...the woman doesn't. This post seems old fashioned and a little sexist

I have no skin in the game here, happily married and was both of our decisions equally, but I’d argue and having seen quite a few of our friends make the same mistake that buying a house with someone to see what they are like to live with is a very expensive lesson.

You put down your deposits, even if you say it’s 50/50 joint tenants or specific proportion splits etc to protect your own deposits, you pay all the fees and 6 months in your realise it doesn’t work actually, but you’re facing huge ERC on the mortgage to get out early, you potentially face selling at a lower price with wary buyers of a house being bought and sold so quickly, you’re paying all of your fees again… expensive lottery.

I had a very happy life before I met my DH
I wouldn’t have given up my flat etc unless I was getting marriage followed by DC

Incentives, what on earth, you mean like a bonus for hitting a sales target?
So basically seeing relationships like training a dog, where man gets treats (sex, a baby, someone to wash his socks) in return for a proposal.
I'll pass thanks.

So how do women have sex then?

Lets take this from the start. You start seeing someone, want to see more of them, are dating exclusively, are partners/boyfriend girlfriend

Then what. A few months in you say, its marriage please?

How on earth would you know you want to marry this person?

You havent slept with them, lived with them, understood their long term functioning, financial acumen, daily habits

This is a very weird take on it. Its probably quite a religious view.

But actually, there's no need for them to wait at all. They can propose and, if the answer is "no" then they can move on.

That does not make the point sexist. Of course the roles can be reversed.

The post is about the common situation where a woman wants marriage and the man keeps delaying it because he is already getting the relationship, family life and commitment he wants without making the commitment she is asking for. If he is content with the status quo, he has little incentive to change it.

Acknowledging that pattern does not deny that some men want marriage more than their partners do.

If she wanted marriage, and made that clear, but life happened and time marched on, and no time for a wedding was found, then yes he doesn't respect her. You can't love someone without respecting them. (Includes a reversal on sexes.)

Ruddy Nora, what a load of sexist clap trap.

We did it all before marriage. We were not too fussed to marry but it became a practical thing, as one became a high earner and planing inheritance if one dies. We were all in together and now it’s official on paper.

leaving one person financially vulnerable in a committed relationship shows no respect.

It's only in the last thirty-odd years (out of all recorded human history) that living together had become the norm (in the west; not everywhere). It doesn't really seem like marriages are getting happier. The divorce rate just keeps rising.

But, sure, live together. But don't let it drag on for years, don't buy a house, don't become financially dependent, don't give him all the advantages that men get and women don't from marriage. And above all, don't have children. There's so many people just sort of drifting into lifelong relationships without ever really making a decision to commit. They get entangled and then it's just too hard to leave. And then there's so many women trying to build their lives around a man who just sort of fell into being with them. Because men just want to be with a woman - she doesn't have to be forever. They just want a social secretary and the housework done and sex and all the emotional stuff that they just get from one woman because they don't have real friends. They're so pathetically unable to manage without a woman. Doesn't mean they're in love.

DH wanted to get married pretty quickly after we met, when I asked him about it he basically said he knew I was the one and there was no point waiting around. I absolutely would never had kids or shared a mortgage with someone I wasn’t married to. We did live together before we got married (which I recommend, you don’t have to buy together) I moved into his place, my place was rented out. I don’t think you have to withhold sex and often it is women who want kids (in our case it was DH so ofcourse women aren’t always the primary drivers behind having children) so I don’t think men actually have to do much. They just sort of sit there and allow a woman to carry on. I have no idea, but I can’t imagine the majority of men in these specific types of relationships badgered a woman for kids before marriage.

I think having kids it what screws a lot of women, I think once you have kids its a lot harder to leave a less than ideal relationship so many try to make it work way past the point they should have quit. If he loves you getting married isn’t a big deal to him, he has no intention of going anywhere so he may as well just sign up for life (hopefully). Having a baby with someone is absolutely not proof of love, it’s just proof you had sex.

It’s just obvious that if you want marriage then try to do it the right way round. If you don’t then none of this applies to you.

The issue is not choosing not to marry. The issue is expecting someone to live as a spouse indefinitely while refusing to become one even though you know marriage matters deeply to them.

@Pinkshocks

Then the answer is for them to walk away. Regardless of the sex of the partner. Whether the man is too comfortable etc…
If marriage is a deal breaker, don’t accept no marriage. Same with many other things in a marriage.

The way you put it, men will only marry if they are forced to do so. Who would want a marriage ‘because he had no choice’?

My now DH of 30 years also proposed after a short time (three months), he said he knew he loved me, knew I was ‘the one’ and when a man knows he knows.

It's only in the last thirty-odd years (out of all recorded human history) that living together had become the norm (in the west; not everywhere). It doesn't really seem like marriages are getting happier. The divorce rate just keeps rising.

Divorce rates are rising because women can afford to leave. Because tgey have a finacially indeoendence they didn’t have before.
Marriages before weren’t happier. Women in the 50~60 were on ADs just to cope with said husband. Many were miserable. They just had no other choice.

We can't know that; there's no way to measure happiness. But if we're doing anecdata, I'm not convinced. I've known a lot of very old people - like 90+ and married 60+ years, and something that's jumped out has been the proportion of very happy-seeming couples. Not all by any means, but definitely higher than among the younger married people I know. Men, in particular, married for decades and still seemingly unable to believe their luck. It feels like when women weren't just so easily accessible and you couldn't just ditch one and shack up with another in weeks, they... I don't know, valued them higher or something? Whereas now it's like we view other people like disposable commodities, and are always wondering if we might be able to get an upgrade.

They have to sacrifice wages and pensions on maternity leave, etc.

Everyone I know in professional jobs gets paid in full for 9 months maternity, some 12. No excuse for not having a good job before having children.

All of those women wanted to marry after a while. Nice isn't it behind anything else

Hmmm but I also know loveless marriages.

People that get married because it’s the right thing to do.

They get married, have kids, and argue about their partners all the time.

I was a single mum with my first, but realised I don’t value marriage sadly, but it might come from witnessing a bad divorce as a teen. I might need therapy haha. Now that I’m in my 30s I’m witnessing either divorces from couples that rushed into marriage but have family, or people that stayed single and marriage is more of a strategic move to have kids and security etc.

I do think a lot of marriage is about family, legacy and commitment - abit more than love.

But I think if someone hesitates for marriage when it’s very important to the other partner, then that’s more of a value misalignment than love. I guess you don’t love them enough to commit - or you’re not ready for whatever reason - so then that isn’t your forever person? Because that’s what rejecting marriage tells me.

I’ve also heard married couples grow in love - get married for the sake of tradition and kids and then fall in love with their partners over time.

My gran and my mum used to say “why would he buy the cow if he’s already getting the milk for free “

We were got married first than did the rest made sense to me

I 100% agree with you. I wish women would understand how much more power, freedom, peace of mind and influence if we would have if we actually stopped giving men anything without high expectations to them. No intimacy, no living together, no sexting, no nothing until there's a legal commitment that protects us if men decide to be assholes that go back on their commitments.

I also think people should be able to put forward evidence of infidelity from their spouse in a court of law, and that the wronged spouse should legally be able to demand, and be granted, all marital assets upon proven infidelity from their spouse. Maybe people would think twice about cheating if it has crippling financial consequences to do it.

Sexist claptrap that the majority agree with on the poll?

ok.

Sexist claptrap all the same.