to think a lot of men will not marry if they already get everything?

[Pinkshocks]

If he is already getting everything on a plate, a committed partner, a sexual relationship, children, someone to split the bills with, emotional support and a family life, all without making any legal or lifelong commitment, why would he change anything?

I know this does NOT apply to every couple or to ALL men. Some people genuinely do not want to marry and both are happy with that. But if one person wants marriage and the other keeps putting it off year after year, are they really going to change when they are already getting everything they want?

Why would someone buy the ticket when they are already getting the whole show for free?

The title of the post is “to think a lot of men will not marry if they already get everything?”

In other replies you said “It is sad but he gets everything without marrying her. Sex, children”

I think a woman is more than a baby creating sex doll. I don’t think a relationship is about what the other person “gets”.

I don’t think these men would’ve suddenly wanted to marry these women if they weren’t getting “sex and children”. I don’t think withholding sex and children will get them a ring because I don’t think sex and children are incentives to marriage. The only incentive to marriage is legal protections after a spouse’s death. Not getting sex and kids until marriage will not make a man more eager to marry a woman unless they’re 14 years old or religious.

But your OP clearly talks about women who want to marry and men who don't. If it was about one person's wants over another, why have you made it gender based?

Who says they are stringing a person along as well? If someone has been clear they don't want to marry, and the other person keeps saying they do, both are being clear. No one's opinion or wants has more weight than the other. The person who isn't getting what they want can leave as their partner has been clear they won't marry.

If however a person is saying one day we will marry and that day never arrives... Then fair enough, that is stringing them along.

What are you saying on the ground here though?

No sex before marriage?

Give it away? Its not something to withhold or to 'give'. Sex is for you isnt it?

Its a wierd thing I see on here a lot, the implication that sex is for the man.

You seem to ignore the fact that some women want to avoid marriage. The choice to walk away works both ways.

I watched my dm raise 6 dcs and be treated as a domestic skivy for 40 years so I was naturally wary despite being with ex for years. I have a degree and a career, and had a child only when I was ready.

My ex wanted to marry but immediately after ds was born he started treating me with contempt and became controlling. It was much easier and faster for me to leave.

I see a relationship as two adults willingly entering an intimate relationship. Two adults can choose to marry. Or not. They are equal.

But do women want marriage more than men? I'm not sure that is true any more.

Maybe some men are like that but most men would not consider sex and children "everything"

A lot of men want what a lot of women want, marriage, a family, a wider family network, all the milestones of a life shared, like anniversaries.

A lot of men and women want all that without marriage and are on the same page. I only got married three years ago after thirty years together.

Your scenario of many men enjoying all the benefits of marriage without the paperwork and their women yearning for marriage is not as common as you make out. Imo.

I’m a woman and feel like that

Firstly, a woman who doesn't work, has kids and no money isn't really a suitable marriage candidate for someone with assets. I mean, why WOULD you marry her?

Secondly, people think men having children means they are in a committed relationship are wrong. Men like sex, they'll have sex with pretty much anyone who consents, hell, they'll even fuck us when we're unconscious or dead. Getting a woman pregnant is the price they're willing to pay for the sex.

I think of the people I know who delayed marriage and mainly they were just young when they got together and wanted to save for homes etc. the men who took ages despite having money etc were basically waiting for someone better and then just gave up. I do think when a man loves you he will just propose. I do also think more women should if they want to.

I think the problem for a lot of women who are higher earners is that often men often still don’t carry their fair share with home and children. Men gain from marriage in numerous ways that women often don’t so I do think it’s different for women. Usually if a man is the higher earner with kids and the marriage breaks down the mother becomes the primary carer, if a woman is a higher earner and the marriage breaks down often she is still the primary carer. The risks never seem entirely equal for women, especially when children come into the picture.

I also think if marriage is important to you just get it done before you agree to kids. Seen it too many times on here, someone claiming to be traditional and wanting to be married but already has three kids, name isn’t on anything and so on.

1 Lots of men treat their partners and children abominably so no , procreation does not mean love.
2 Not if they have to be persuaded ( bribed) to marry them. If one person has to withhold parts of a relationship ( eg sex) in order to convince the other to marry , it’s probably not a good relationship or real love for either person.

That assumes the person was not repeatedly reassured that marriage would happen later. People often agree to a house or children because their partner says engagement or marriage is coming.

Going ahead with a shared life does not prove marriage was unimportant. It may simply show they trusted promises that were never kept. The responsibility is not only on the person who waited but also on the person who kept benefiting from that hope.

I don’t think it’s worth the risk for a lot of women anymore tbh.

I can’t bear the whole premise of “why buy the ticket if you get the show for free”. It is based on the idea that all women want marriage, whereas for men it’s something they put up with.
Men aren’t buying women when they marry. Women aren’t manipulating men by withholding certain things to get what they want. If those things are happening, it’s a bad relationship.

But I’d agree with your point that if someone wants to get married and the other person say yes but keeps putting it off, they are unlikely to change.

The phrase is about incentives, not ownership or manipulation. Nobody is suggesting men are buying women or that women should withhold sex or children to secure a proposal.

The point is much simpler. If someone already has the relationship they want, the family life they want and the commitment they want from their partner, but knows their partner wants marriage more than they do, what motivates them to change the status quo?

It is also not based on the idea that all women want marriage. It is about the situations where one partner clearly does and the other is happy to benefit from the relationship without giving them the commitment they have asked for.

Nobody said men only want sex and children or that most couples are mismatched about marriage.

The post is specifically about women who do want marriage and are repeatedly told it will happen while their partner is content with the existing arrangement. Couples who mutually choose not to marry are irrelevant to that point.

Your own thirty year relationship worked because you were apparently on the same page. That does not mean the other scenario is rare or insignificant.

OP: it is not an assumption - many women have been posting as long as I have been on mumsnet that they want to marry but their partner refuses. I know women myself in this position too.

In other words, "you see it all the time". This, though, is pure perception bias.

You see women posting about their relationship woes on here much more than men, because it's primarily a women's site and most of the posters are female. (I'd bet most of your friends who are close enough to discuss these issues with you are female, too.)

Also, you're much more likely to hear from the women who want to get married and feel blocked, than the women who are happily cohabiting - because the former have a problem, and the latter don't.

It's easy to think something is a huge problem when you keep running into people complaining about it. The thing is, you don't hear from all the people who are perfectly happy.

Yes I think so.

This is sort of my point though, if marriage is the thing that is genuinely important, you don’t compromise on that. You don’t pass go, don’t collect £200, no kids, no house, you lay your cards out- marriage is important to me, that’s my hill to die on, and if the other person doesn’t want that commitment then that’s fine and they aren’t for you, but a “one day” promise isn’t enough to compromise or wait for this thing you say is so important to you. You put the things important to you first. If marriage is it then you don’t just agree to kids etc first.

And being totally honest, if marriage is important to you, what excuse would make it worthwhile to wait while also agreeing to houses and kids? You can’t accept a financial excuse because houses & kids are more expensive than getting married, and you can’t accept a commitment excuse because having kids with someone is a life long tie. So again, why wait? Why go along with other things before you have THE thing, the commitment that was so important to you?

Just cos some women don’t want marriage…what difference does that make to women who do?

Lots of women value the security of marriage, particularly with children. That’s hugely important, particularly as mothers generally invest financially in the marriage & children by losing out on wages.

I know plenty of women who don't want to get married. Plenty of men get married and then fuck around. I really don't think you can generalise!

That may explain why the issue appears frequently on a women’s forum, but it does not make the issue itself a perception bias.

Nobody is claiming unhappy cohabiting couples represent everyone. The point is about a specific and recurring situation where one person wants marriage and the other keeps delaying it. Happily unmarried couples do not disprove that pattern because they are not the people being discussed.

But you have to live with someone to know what they're like, I wouldnt marry anyone or commit to someone without knowing what they're like to live with. Why wouldnt I buy a property, I dont want to rent?

This is a theoretical question by the way because marriage isnt important to me, I dont want it and I own my own property.

That is not the generalisation being made. Of course many women do not want marriage and marriage does not guarantee fidelity.

The point is specifically about relationships where one person does want marriage and the other has no need or desire while enjoying the relationship as it is. Other couples making different choices do not disprove that.

No sex plus everything else that men get from a relationship - living together, financial commitment, emotional support, co-owning property, children, all the wifework that means married men live longer and so do single women.

Men care more about sex; they're more strongly motivated by it. Once a woman has children, that's her strongest motivator. Men will walk away from their families and hardly see their kids for another woman - for more or better sex. Women, hardly ever. Women get trapped because they will put their children before anything, and a high proportion of men will put themselves and their wants (chief among which is sex) before anything.

The very first paragraph of your first post gendered it by referring to "he" getting everything he wanted outside of marriage. By the end of the post, you'd changed it to "they". So is this a post about men and women differing in their goals? Or about people generally, regardless of sex?

Then surely, OP, the answer is to teach young women to be more astute. To treat all his promises with a good humoured pinch of salt until he delivers on them.

Marriage is a legal contract and should be treated like any other contract - wait until the ink has dried on the signatures.