to think a lot of men will not marry if they already get everything?

[Pinkshocks]

If he is already getting everything on a plate, a committed partner, a sexual relationship, children, someone to split the bills with, emotional support and a family life, all without making any legal or lifelong commitment, why would he change anything?

I know this does NOT apply to every couple or to ALL men. Some people genuinely do not want to marry and both are happy with that. But if one person wants marriage and the other keeps putting it off year after year, are they really going to change when they are already getting everything they want?

Why would someone buy the ticket when they are already getting the whole show for free?

Sadly, this isn't true. The myth that it's rare for a woman to prioritise sex above her children is dying out in the age of twenty-four-hour news coverage. There are endless reports of mothers allowing their boyfriends to abuse and kill their children - in fact, sometimes the mothers even join in with the abuse to impress the boyfriend. Just yesterday, Isabelle's Welsh's mother and her boyfriend were found guilty of abusing and murdering her. It's only been two months since those young French boys were found abandoned by their mother and her partner on a roadside in Portugal. There are so many news stories like this. It's not rare at all.

I don't think they take many, many generations to change at all. My grandfather's generation was one which kept me entirely separate from childbirth and child rearing. My father's generation was one where men attended births (largely as observers) and played a greater (though not huge) role in their children's upbringing. My generation was one where men were meant to take an active role in supporting their partners while they gave birth and participate more as fathers and partners. The newest generation of parents benefit from shared parental leave (still a flawed system). That's a huge change in just a handful of generations. I'd also say that in my parents generation, bring unmarried and having children was rare and still seen as shocking. My generation? Nobody batted an eyelid. This thread is out of step with modern reality, assuming that women are still longing to get married and still silently hoping for men to ask them.

But a man walking out on his kids isn't a news story at all (and if it were, we'd have no airtime or column inches for any others). It is rare for women to harm their kids or even just leave them. Men walk away from their kids and don't seem too fussed whether they see them much (or at all) in their millions, all the time.

Superficially things have changed, yes. And attitudes to single parenthood have changed (only as long as the mother is not on benefits though).

But when it comes to deep-seated attitudes that we unconsciously inherit from our parents, attitudes about how relationships work, that takes much longer.

Just look at the statistics for how many men take shared parental leave, and how much more housework women are still doing, even when both work full time.
I think governments are ahead of the people on this.

I'm not sure changes have been so superficial. It would be unacceptable now for the average man not to attend his child's birth, or to leave every bit of childcare and housework to his female partner. I think that the reason why you see threads on here complaining that male partners do that, demonstrates that it's not the expected norm and women are seeking advice and reassurance if it turns out to be their experience. Same with marriage - it's not common any more for women to long passively for a proposal, or for the lack of the proposal to provide evidence that's she's "giving away" something and her value is less as a result. I absolutely don't deny that patriarchy is as powerful as ever but I think it's becoming expressed in different ways because, as you say, legislation does, to some extent, protect the rights of women (even if, as with maternity pay and leave policy, it still enforces gender norms,).

Men attending the birth is a superficial change, IMHO.

Of course it is not normal for men to leave every bit of childcare and housework to the woman. That doesn't mean that most men are generally doing their fair share though.
No, women are not normally passively waiting for a proposal (though some still do, or drop massive hints instead of actually raising a proper discussion).
But this thread is not about women waiting passively, it is about couples where the man has no incentive to marry even if the woman asks him or raises the discussion repeatedly.

I don't believe that the man not wanting to marry is any reflection on the woman's worth or what she has 'given away'. That is a very patriarchal way of looking at it.
It is however a sign of her foolishness and risk-taking if she is the lower earner and got pregnant before getting married.

I think this thread is actually about a lot more than that. The OP has repeatedly been asked why they chose to focus on a particular angle and hasn't been able to answer. The flood of sexist attitudes unleashed has been eye opening. You'll forgive me but your description of women as foolish and risk taking when operating within a patriarchal system that disadvantages and discriminates against them rather than being victims of that system illuminates that.

Yes the patriarchal system in general disadvantages and discriminates against women, but most women these days have agency and choice over whether they get pregnant. Women are not victims in this. (I'm not talking scenarios of violence, coercion or tampering with her contraception).

If a man won't marry a woman, she should move on and choose another man to have children with.
I don't believe it is sexist to say that she is foolish and risk-taking if she chooses to go ahead with him.
It is true many women are blind to the risks, especially when 'in love', and uninformed about the legal situation, but women still have agency and control in this matter.

TBH, I am not sure where you are coming from. I may have missed your posts: I don't have the advanced feature to filter by a user name.

What is your view on women who get pregnant before marriage, in the hope or expectation of getting married afterwards?

Surprise to be completely honest. I'm of Gen X and it's never been my experience that women of my generation have longed to get married. And if they do, they decide jointly with their partner, not perform some odd mating ritual trying to persuade a man by stealth to marry them!

OK, so you are surprised that some women get pregnant before marriage, in the hope or expectation of getting married afterwards.
Given that they do this, do you agree that this is foolish of them?

I have scrolled back, and found your posts on page 8 from yesterday:
marriage is still based on patriarchal norms and assumptions that ultimately underpin the consequences of divorce. That's not really an argument for marriage per se. Better for anyone entering a partnership, man or woman, to ensure solid legal protection above and beyond what might be offered by marriage.
So we agree that legal protection is needed.
Marriage is a good solution (or civil partnership if that is preferred, as it amounts to the same thing). Marriage has the advantage of being simple and widely understood legally, with a huge amount of case law, so in most cases there is no need for bespoke legal contracts. Why re-invent the wheel?
Of course if you are bringing e.g. a big lump-sum mortgage deposit, you can get additional legal protection.

I think this thread was based on a sexist premise and, as I've said, people certainly haven't held back in expressing sexist views.
If the op has been about relationships where people have mismatched views and aims, it would have been an entirely different thing.
OK I see this is the core of your objection: that the thread was sexist because it talks about women being stuck in this situation rather than men.

In the real world, it is far, far more rare for a man to be in a relationship, with children, with him being the lower earner, and him wanting marriage and the woman not wanting it.
This is not an equally distributed problem - it is a problem that far more women than men have. And it is not sexist to recognise that reality.

Yes probably. But not that marriage is that great tbh so I often wonder why women want it so much.

No. I guess my point all along was the there a a series of assumptions around women and marriage that bear challenge and this thread was largely reinforcing them instead.

For the couples I know who were together ages then married in most cases the woman wasn’t waiting necessarily.

In all almost cases they were not particularly fussed to marry…and then one day mutually decided they would.

With one more he married young and his marriage failed so he did not want to jump into another marriage. But now he’s ready to do it again.

Sorry was that 'No' in response to my question 'Given that they do this, do you agree that this is foolish of them?' ?

I am not finding your posting style or your arguments easy to follow, so happy to bow out at this stage.

OK, so you are surprised that some women get pregnant before marriage, in the hope or expectation of getting married afterwards.
Given that they do this, do you agree that this is foolish of them?

The thread seems to have pivoted from "men are bastards who just want sex" to "unmarried women are silly little hussies".

Getting pregnant before marriage is not something I'd ever do. But then getting pregnant at any point isn't something I'd do either. Seems a fast track to messing up my career, my fitness, my relationship, my sleep, my sanity and most importantly my beloved spare time. Countless threads on MN bear this out.

I could say it's foolish of any woman to get pregnant. Certainly neither me nor my child-free friends seem to have any of the struggles I read about on here - I enjoy my life and I like my husband. But I wouldn't say that out loud because something that's even worse than being an unmarried mother is being judgmental of other people's lives.

My main issue with how this thread is presented is that it doesn't take into account that unmarried women may be doing scandalous things like having sex with their boyfriends because they enjoy having sex with him rather than because they're giving him some sort of precious jewel in the hope that he'll put a ring on it.

Great, please do. It's hard to know what your questions have to do with anything much, and their underlying misogyny is really troubling.

I think your last paragraph sums it up for me. I'm really struggling with the idea that people still think in that way. Also the idea that women are foolish and careless if they don't marry before having children is appalling and pure victim blaming. Women are oppressed by patriarchal structures and also blamed for resisting them - what will ever change if we refuse to look at the root of the problem?

An alarming proportion of MNers hate sex. It's that simple. Any given thread about sex and sexuality will have many, many posters calling it grim. It's very interesting - the root cause seems to be a mix of germphobia (see also the threads about washing towels 5 times a day) and social class obsession (overt sexuality is lower-class, or something). Also probably a lot of people who are asexual but don't realise there's a word for that now.

I dont think many women long for marriage do they?

I take offence at you perceiving underlying misogyny in any of my posts.
I too am a Gen X feminist. If you can't cope with the reality of a sexist, misogynistic and patriarchal world, that is a 'you' problem.
I'm done here.

Surprise to be completely honest. I'm of Gen X and it's never been my experience that women of my generation have longed to get married. And if they do, they decide jointly with their partner, not perform some odd mating ritual trying to persuade a man by stealth to marry them!

But that's missing the point slightly? You can't decide jointly to do something, if one party doesn't want to do it.

Sorry you're offended. Even the staunchest feminist can fall victim to internalised misogyny and this time it was you. Women aren't "foolish" because they're forced to operate within oppressive patriarchal systems that protect the interests of men, inside or outside marriage. Save your wrath (or sweeping judgement may be a more apt term) for the powerful. Oppression is never the fault of the oppressed, nor is it their responsibility to individually combat systemic issues.

Then you decide jointly not to do it, surely, like any other relationship choice? Or you separate. I remain unconvinced that there are significant numbers of women passively longing to be proposed to nor large numbers of men (in 2026!) thinking along the lines of what previous posters have described as getting milk/ a show/ a purchase free of charge. Those overt double standards have ceased to be acceptable.

But jointly deciding not to do it, or separating, is NOT unique to Gen X! Its what this whole thread is about - the dilemma of couples who don't get married, often because one party doesn't want to do it, the alternative being separation.