to think a lot of men will not marry if they already get everything?

[Pinkshocks]

If he is already getting everything on a plate, a committed partner, a sexual relationship, children, someone to split the bills with, emotional support and a family life, all without making any legal or lifelong commitment, why would he change anything?

I know this does NOT apply to every couple or to ALL men. Some people genuinely do not want to marry and both are happy with that. But if one person wants marriage and the other keeps putting it off year after year, are they really going to change when they are already getting everything they want?

Why would someone buy the ticket when they are already getting the whole show for free?

A lot of women have been made to believe that they should be getting what they want if people aren't being abusive to them.

It's a cycle where the men are made to believe they have to tolerate a certain dynamic if they want a relationship because that's just how women are. The women around them reinforce that view by modeling those behaviours. They arent aware that they have a choice.

The same cycle prompts women to choose men who arent aware that they get to have a choice about their future and it doesn't make them a bad guy if they find they don't want kids, or to blindly appease the wishes of a female partner on things like where they live or how they manage their home.

It often takes men until their middle.ages to wake up and realise that all this has happened to them and that they are over not having a say in their own destiny. Then they walk out and leave to try and establish that liberty.

An unmarried woman who wants a child can use the services of a sperm bank. There isn’t really a need to cultivate an intimate relationship with a man.

If there isn’t a need then the reason women do it is because it’s a want.

Men cannot get pregnant, so if they want a child they need a woman. And they need that woman for 9 months, not the few minutes it takes them to donate sperm.

So it makes sense for a man who wants to be a father to find a willing woman. If they can’t find a willing one then they may consider adoption or surrogacy.

There are women who want children with a man. They don’t want to go it alone, they want the support of another human in raising children.

Occasionally these two humans meet. The man finds a willing woman and the woman finds a man who appears to want the same things as her. Unfortunately she doesn’t realise he wants her for her breeding potential alone. He knows that saying this isn’t going to get him far, so he keeps quiet about that and reassures the woman he’s in it for the long term. They discuss marriage - ‘no need’, ‘old fashioned’, ‘outdated concept’, ‘patriarchal nonsense’, etc. Or ‘not yet, let’s have kids / move in together / wait until we’re more settled / save up for the big wedding’ etc. The man has little to no intention of marrying, but the woman believes he does want to at some later point.

Kids arrive. They’re still not married. No need now, right? The kids are already here and they’re still together so why get a piece of paper to prove things are stable?

Only one person is committed to this relationship and it isn’t the person who knows where it really stands.

Eventually the man moves on, finds someone else and quite often marries her.

There are a lot of single unmarried mothers out there. Not all of them by choice. They’re the ones who take to MN distraught that they’ve been left holding the baby. If they knew in advance that their partner just wanted to procreate and that they came along at the right time, how many do you think would have willingly tried to cultivate an emotionally intimate relationship with their former dp?

They’d have saved themselves the heartache and registered for receipt of donor sperm. It’s basically what they ended up with anyway.

@Lexibletheflexible im assuming you’re aware that what you’ve described also applies to women rigut?
Maybe even more do in that men have always had tge ability to leave whereas women didn’t (historically men could divorce their wife but women couldn’t divorce their husband).

But otherwise yes, people, men and women, act depending what the culture/society is around them. Few people ask why.

Where I’m going to push back is that men might not have been asked if they want children (even though that’s not my exierience but 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️). However, once they have fathered a child they should not be allowed to not carry that responsibility in the ground of ‘I didn’t want to’. The child never chose to be there. It might not be quite what they wanted but I’m sorry, tough, they’ll have to live with it.

An unmarried woman who wants a child can use the services of a sperm bank. There isn’t really a need to cultivate an intimate relationship with a man.

@LovelyCrocus on paler you’re right even though it’s very new AND you need the money first said IVF.
However, it’s very much frown upon. I’ve worked with women undergoing IVF whikst being single. They are judged rigut left and centre.
Much easier to have a ONS and say it was an accident fwiw

@LovelyCrocus also if the men who refuse the marriage part do it because they want kids, why do they not ask for at least 50/50? Why chosing to be a part time dad?
Or are you saying that once tge child is here, the need is filled and they dint care anymore afterwards?

I’m going to say it depends a lot on the generation. Things change.
Im from the older generation on MN, menopausal, kids are adult etc…
And yes there was still a sa stitch about marriage that you dint have anymore.
There was a huge oressure to be at home with the kids because otherwise you’re just outsourcing bring a parent. Sounds crazy now? Yep but that’s what women told all the time. Along side studies on higher level of cortisol etc….

Nowdays, the younger women, those in their 20s, they have a very different attitude!
Theyre getting stuck on somethimg else though. Lack of jobs, cost of living. These are much more if a restriction than I was that age.

Parents should raise their boys to understand that they don't have to have kids to count as a "good man". They arent a "player" or "womaniser" or "commitmentphobe" if they do not agree to conceive with someone who wants kids. If a guy goes into a relationship understanding that, then you can say he gave informed consent to conceive.

Well we live in a world today where women have the most opportunities, resources and access to information to make better choices so they need to do better and take responsibility.

Well bringing a child into the world who will have no relationship with their biological parent is ethically dicey.

I think this should be tge case for both genders. A lot of women have children ‘because that’s what you’re supposed to do p’ too.

But if I look at my own young adult dcs, I see people NOT wanting to have children. They’re fearful of tge future, not getting on the housing ladder, not getting a job that allows them to live.
They are mid 20s and can’t imagine to be stable enough financially to even be able to think about having children.

Id also want to point out that young adults have sex less and less. Much less than in 2000 (deoending what era you are from). I think the womaniser image's something that is dying down just because of that.

That's not what I mean, and also again you're talking about cultural norms as if they're set in stone. What I mean is that you're talking about maternity leave and pay as though those types of parental leave are automatically and solely the responsibility of women. It's like when it's said that women are working for nothing because of childcare costs, like the expense and responsibility for all aspects of family life belongs to women by default. These unchallenged assumptions are how we end up with the gender career and pay gap.

Oh no. You don't get to do that. You don't get to pretend that your awful sexism is down to men being men. Own your views.

Gives what away?

No, having children and bringing them up from birth is not solely a woman's responsibility. We don't see things like that because we live in 2026 and not 1956. Things have moved on and evolved, even if you're not aware of that.

Please read my post again.
What I have described is a woman's part in the process of producing a child before birth, during birth and immediately afterwards - her responsibility, if you like.
Once baby is out of the womb hopefully she'll get some assistance, but many men just don't step up to the plate.

I’m not suggesting it’s either easy or cheap, just that biologically it’s possible. A woman needs a man for a five minute input of sperm. A man needs a woman to willingly gestate the baby for 9 months. It’s an unbalanced equation.

I think for some men (caveat: NAM etc) they feel the need to ‘spread their seed’. Society views parenthood as normal, pretty much expected of people, particularly heterosexual ones. They want children because they’ve been brought up in a society that expects people to reproduce. There’s also a certain status to having a living being owe it’s very existence to you and for it to carry your surname into the future. For a selfish and self-obsessed man I expect there’s a certain attraction to that.

But they’re not at all fussed by the day-to-day realities of parenting. So yes, seed and go. Child rearing is women’s work so there isn’t really any reason to hang around. Consider the phenomenon of Baby Mothers. The fathers want offspring, they don’t want the woman.

Then you were answering a point I didn't make.

Talk to people in their 20s and they’ll agree.
Men in their 40s? The ones that are gettimg divorced now? Nope. They haven’t got the memo yet.

fwiw I agree @ClarkeandNewman with not having things set in stone. In Sweden, they’ve ‘forced’ fathers to take that year paternity leave. So mum is staying at home fir 1 year afd then fathers are a SAHF forvtye following year.
Result: much lower divorce rates - men have realised how hard it is!- Better work organisation that makes looking after children easier (like finishing early enough to pick up the children after school), women are not impacted by having children at work because men take as much leave etc….
Sometimes what makes things change re feeling if responsibility is to put external structure that forces that change

That isn't quite correct.

ClarkeandNewman · Today 17:59
No, having children and bringing them up from birth is not solely a woman's responsibility.

I was pointing out the biological fact that a woman has to be pregnant and have a child by giving birth, and that is her sole responsibility. No man can do that for her.

I kind of agree. I see this constantly with women whining he won’t marry them. After they live together, been together years, kids, merged finances.

But then I have also know couple who get married after 20+ years together.

Yes, you were answering a point I didn't make. I know.

It's how men think.

Men will gladly impregnate a woman and have her running the household without thinking twice about marriage.

That's not my experience of men in their 40s. I'm not sticking up for men; I'm well aware of the way society enables poor male behaviour. Maternity and parental leave policy in the UK reinforce that pattern. There's plenty of room for improvement, none of which relies on marriage.

Are you a man?