AIBU to think upper middle class professionals downplay how much they game education?

[MyCyanAnt]

I can’t be the only one who has noticed this. I went to genuinely average comprehensive schools and had parents who just dgaf like most in UK. I went to medical school where it seemed like this upbringing put you in a small minority, now an ultra high earner from own business but still do part time work as a GP. DC are 12 and 14.

Whenever the topic of education comes up with other doctors/professionals they will say stuff like it’s the child not the school who determines the outcome, we’re not pushing DC, we’re letting DC pick their school etc

However when it comes down to it none of them ever put their money where their mouth is. It won’t always be Eton but it will almost always be either a private, grammar or high performing comp in expensive catchment area instead of a genuinely average comp.

It’s a similar story with paying for tutors and other parents DC being interested in prestigious but completely unrelated careers e.g. Doctor or investment banking who have obviously been guided by parents.

I do the same but I feel like I’m an outlier in that I don’t lie about it, I’m obviously paying/gaming things so DC are much more likely to get a top job. I don’t see what’s wrong with admitting it yet it’s such a sensitive subject with some.

I started with reselling stuff online now run a fairly large online retailer, it took decades to get to this point but profit of £1-£2 mil a year. I used to run a small aesthetic medicine clinic but sold these off a while ago to word more time with DC. I’m very aware this is not upper middle class too haha.

Exactly, I think I mentioned the thing about immigrants earlier.

I didn’t say there was any particular “best school” I said the best school for their dc. Lots of kids in our town do really well at the well regarded comprehensive, my ds would have blended into the wallpaper there and hid under the radar. It’s his personality, so we put him in a small independent day school where no child could go under the radar, it was absolutely right for him. No big academic pressure, not all independents are about “top grades”, his school is more about getting a rounded educational experience. And it’s well known for its excellent learning support department.
As for “if a child is going to succeed they will succeed” I was proof that isn’t always true! I didn’t do well at my school because it was huge and there was lots of disruptive behaviour, it was sink or swim and I sunk, nothing to do with my intelligence.

I've met some privileged people over the past few years, the sort I had no idea existed before, and I recognise this constant downplaying. I think it's a combination of genuinely not being aware of their own privilege because of a sort of communal upper middle class delusion, but also a need to gaslight normal folk that if only we tried a bit harder we'd all have what they do.

I agree with this. I'm not sure that in the long term giving very intensive help to elevate academic success does people a service. There won't be a private tutor on hand to support them through the intellectual demands of the job they eventually land as a result, and they will struggle. I've encountered several people in roles that they are not intellectually able for, despite an academic record suggesting otherwise. They underperform and become stressed and lose confidence as a result.

I disagree. My kids are at private prep but everyone I know using state education tries their hardest to get their kids into the best school they can. Relocating, attending church etc is not uncommon. At the very least they visit schools, research and apply for whichever they think is the best, appeal decisions, keeping their fingers crossed.

I know there will be some parents at the bottom of the barrel who don’t give a shit, but to suggest that most brits who don’t use private schools feel this way is frankly insulting.

Definitely. My DC plays with a boy on our street. He goes to the local school. She was worried if she considered elsewhere her family that send their children to the same school would be offended or think she was getting ahead of herself.

I can't see anyone choosing to send their kids to a shit school. I mean why would the kid even pick a shit school if the parents were letting them choose?

I don't see why someone wanting a similar or better education for their kids to themselves is gaming any system.

If you willfully do not care about it and do send your kids to a school that sucks, it must be because you don't think they're academically capable of trying for a better one.

had parents who just dgaf like most in UK.

I stopped there. If that's your opinion I'm not going to read whatever else you might have to say.

The pp is a lecturer. The same high achieving outcomes often happen with parents who are teachers, or skilled workers, or doctors. Their children are not particularly representative examples of people at comprehensives.

Growing up in a house where books and reading/learning are celebrated I think makes a difference. Going out at weekends to museums, etc.

Of course it does, as do the examples and expectations around them, and even the food they eat.

I don't think it's 'the bottom of the barrel'. I think it's a large percentage who want their children to do OK but don't see education as of supreme importance. Maybe 30-40% of the population?

It's not "gaming" but it is privilege, yes.

What annoys me is class prejudice in recruiting for certain jobs and in certain fields.

'You can’t force your child to do something as an adult they either don’t wish or are not capable of'. In my nieces year at a med school, they allow re-sits every year, considering that a D is a pass. Yes, a D is a pass, plus re-sits. They also have a wider participation programme - children who never did science subjects at school or performed badly at school (my niece) are given a leg up to med school on this programme. My niece does not want to study medicine, her mum does. Many people on her course are in med school for the money only, they are self-motivated. But a considerable chunk is there because their parents force them to do what they are not capable of, hence an abundance of Ds and multiple re-sits.

I think the real difference is in what some parents consider shit schools or even a good enough school.

That being said, I only know one “if it was good enough for me, it’s good enough for them “ parent.

I'm sending my SEN child with learning difficulties and cognitive issues thanks to a badly mismanaged (NHS) birth where we both nearly died to a private school that caters to his needs. I'm not 'gaming the system'. I'm without apology and without mendacity paying for what I believe is best for him. The end.

It's not 'gaming the system' OP, it's being ambitious for your DC and also being realistic. The 'system' requires that DC do well in their GCSEs, A levels and degree in order to have the best chance of success in life and if your DC do poorly they will struggle to progress to the next stage each time.

UMC professionals know this and they plan years ahead to ensure that their DC are going to have the best shot at a good set of exam results each time. Why? Because a) they went through the system themselves, b) they know how much more competitive life is now, and c) they may also be part of the system that is hiring grads and know what the deal is. So you can whine that it's 'gaming the system' if you like, but life is tough, it's competitive, and if you really 'just want your DC to be happy' and send them to a shit school when you know that if pushed they could achieve much better, you are, IMO, letting them down.

But if the nearest school happens to be an academic grammar or high performing comp then what’s the issue? Most middle class parents live in middle class areas where there are more likely to be middle class high achieving state schools.

In days gone by middle class parents would grit their teeth and send their children to not so wonderful state schools and hope they wouldn’t sink, but not these days.

Many people work hard.

If you work hard from a position of privilege you will get further than if you work hard from a position without privilege.

Intelligence equals motivated? Motivation is usually the preserve of those who are not very intelligent, but shrewd and who know they have to be motivated to perform at a certain level, not to fall behind.

Funny though, my (dear departed) DB had every opportunity to do anything he wanted. Wonderful childhood with my adoptive parents, grammar school education, comfortable middle class childhood with every privilege. He was very intelligent and could have done extremely well, if he'd applied himself properly. But, his personality and temperament, plus lots of poor choices, meant his life went one way towards drugs and he passed away aged 34 from bowel cancer.

Similarly, I had the same life and opportunities, yet have not climbed the publishing corporate ladder in spite of a degree and fairly good career in my 20s. Poor health and 3 (fabulous) DC mean now I'm part time as a freelance copywriter but earning a pittance. Less than minimum wage, and not something I'd have predicted in spite of all my life opportunities. I tried.

But there is a limit to my abilities now, after a head injury a decade ago, and I feel incredibly sad my parents did everything they could as excellent parents to give me the best chance. I've often thought "how did my life become this?" But I also look at all the things I am grateful for, and see it as a chance to make the most of what I do now.

Should have proof read..🙈 Does not! 😂

The biggest load of crock is that smart children will thrive anywhere.

Smart children can also be very introverted, reserved and require calmer and less disruptive settings. My child is one of them. They are at a top Selective London private school and would have failed at just ‘any’ school.
Looking at his peer group, a lot of the kids are very much the same but are thriving at everything because they are in the right environment.

Also disagree with this. Future jobs couldn’t be further from my mind. I chose my children’s school because it had far superior facilities, extra curricular opportunities and yes, ‘atmosphere’ and ethos to the local village primaries around us. It’s very possible that they will end up going to fairly high profile public schools after prep. Nevertheless My eldest currently wants to go to agricultural college and become a farmer when he leaves school. I would be thrilled if his dream comes true and will certainly not feel that his expensive education was a waste in any way. All I want for my children is that they are happy and fulfilled.

Plus a lot of state sixth forms (particularly in London and Home Counties) are not comprehensive even if attached to comprehensive schools- they require you to have an average of 7 across GCSE, 7's in A level subjects (most have 8/9) and a min 8 to take maths. There are obvious advantages to those sorts of sixth forms where the teachers are able to teach to a pretty narrow ability range and students have a universally high performing peer group.

Yeah there is that. Definitely. Some think anything below Eton is shite. Others just want a comp that has good art provision or not too strict uniform or reputation for social cohesion, and is in walking distance of their house.

I think you are right, there is often a rhetoric about 'letting the children find their way ', and people are less upfront about being very calculating and sharp-elbowed.

It is also true, though, that our values are also encoded in our behaviour and our choices, so you don't necessarily need to say out loud 'I'd like you to go to a Russell Group university'- a bright child, in a peer group of similar, will already get these messages from school, from other children, other parents, and in fact I've found it important to provide alternative messages; you don't have to go to university unless that's your choice; there's lots of good universities not just RG ones; being entrepreneurial is good.

I'm proud to be one of the sharp-elbowed middle-classes though, I'm shameless that the reason I work so hard myself and want to earn more money is for my own family to be more secure in the future. I'm happy to 'game' the NHS because it's not fit for purpose and I don't want anyone in my family to die unnecessarily waiting years for treatment, or overlooked, or with a letter lost about a critical appointment.

I don't feel the need to hide any of this but many do. I have a lot of friends who are first/second gen immigrant, and my partner is, and they are far more upfront about all this; why would you move country and then just accept any old school for your children?