To think Gill Pharaoh had the ideal end of life

[CurdinHenry]

Article in the Times about this woman who decided to end her life through voluntary euthanasia at 75. Huge outrage on social media as a result as various people missing the point entirely express fury because they think being very elderly will be great fun. I personally don't want to get older than that. I don't ask anyone else to take the same view but it stresses me out that the naive want to reduce choices available to the prescient. Euthanasia should be available to everyone without condition.

But where do you draw the line between a mental illness and a decision you just can’t understand.

As an example - my grandma is 97, her husband of over 70 yrs died a few years ago. She lives alone in the house she’s lived in for decades. No downstairs toilet or stairlift and is physically pretty well, able to get up and down the stairs etc. She’s never had any serious health issues or illnesses. Mentally she is completely sharp and with it. She has a cleaner and someone who comes in daily to help with dinner because where she does struggle is opening things, lifting pots and pans etc. Currently she’s fairly happy with her life.
If she started to get unwell (let’s say nothing that would specifically kill her but maybe further loss of independence or needing to move out of her home), would it be mentally unwell for someone in her position to say “you know what, I’ve had a really good run, and am not particularly interested in this last bit being awful”? Would we insist on antidepressants and a therapist?

(I hope it goes without saying that whilst I wouldn’t think that decision would come from mental illness, I’d obviously be very upset to lose her. I also don’t think it’s a decision she would make, but who knows)

I do see your point and it is a very difficult issue. My grandmother died at 88, she dreaded loss of independence and worried about it a lot. In the end she was fit and active until the very end (walking miles every day and out with friends most days.) She got ill very suddenly, went to hospital and died the next day. I was her next of kin and had power of attorney and was with her in hospital. I was asked if we wanted everything possible done to keep her alive. I said no, she wouldn’t want to be resuscitated to potentially survive but lose her health and independence. It was 100% what she would have wanted. But there is a massive difference between not actively treating an elderly person with poor chance of recovery, and actively choosing to end someone’s life.

I have also lost a loved one to suicide, it is devastating in a way most people can’t comprehend. I admit that this clouds my view on this issue.

This is exactly what my relative used to say - they got to 98, outlived husband, 9 siblings, 9 in-laws, several nieces and nephews, no kids of their own. They used to say I've lived to long, and it was hard not to agree with them. Nearly 10yrs sat in a chair and then a bed in a nursing home…

It is difficult, though. Many people try several times and it can be an awful way to go and sometimes unsuccessful with devastating consequences. Plus you surely to have some consideration for whoever finds you? I used to be peripherally involved in funeral care and it can be grim. Especially if you’re not discovered for a while.

I can’t agree that a decision about one’s own existence is selfish, let alone very selfish.

Having watched both my grandmothers die slow, painful and undignified deaths in their nineties, and now watching the slow decline of my mum from a progressive illness in her early eighties, I completely agree with the reasons behind Gill’s decision.

I have absolutely no desire to live a long life if it means ending up in a care home, with every day the same and absolutely nothing to look forward to. Give me a quick, clean and efficient death at a time of my choosing please.

I frankly get absolutely sick of all the posts on threads like this one saying " I'm very happy waiting to die of old age so you should be too“.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-68373897

this reminds me of wendy mitchell who had early onset dementia and wrote a number of books about it. Her last book was about various ways of dying and she had planned to go to switzerland but had a bad fall and was unable to go. She took her own life in collaboration with her doctor and daughters by starving herself.

i think she was a very brave woman.

I agree - its comes off as smug and smacks of privilege. It might not be the motivating factor though , It could actually be down to pride or the fear of people thinking you are frail and weak, but the reality is some people are , and you older strong, robust folk need to recognise that.

And there are those who aren't active and able to go things My mum had a stroke at just turned 75 which left her unable to talk, sit up, eat etc.

That wouldn't have been a nice older lufe

Bollocks. Tell that to my DF after he had a stroke and is 100% relying on carers for his every, single need. He wants to die, no one can achieve that for him.

If you are fully capable possibly, but if you are at the stage of wanting to end it you probably aren’t.

Absolutely this. When the state also has to pay for the entirety of your healthcare, it has a major conflict of interest.

I am in principle supportive of AD outside the NHS, but I also find the number of people using it in Canada rather disturbing.

Reading it, I wouldn't say her husband says he did understand the decision. He definitely says it was her decision to make but 'understand', I'm not so sure from what he says. But having your life partner decide to end their life when they are still relatively healthy and leave you, must be hard to deal with psychologically. Deliberately leaving you on your own and also, by implication, saying you don't want to face old age together because it's going to be crap and it's going to still be crap even with you with me. That's going to be hard for a partner, however much you 'understand' the decision. Completely different if they had terminal illness. Wonder how much she considered the impact on those who loved her. It's easy to say 'if you loved her you respect her decision', but that doesn't prevent the feeling that you were just not good enough for them to want to continue to share a life with you. That's hard.

Sorry but if my choices are running the risk of being reliant on carers or upsetting my family with a slightly early death it's not even a close tie. Family who wanted to see my like that are not worth the candle.

Ive noticed that this OP often posts nasty, unkind things.

Just ignore them. They arent even worth getting upset about

You are running the risk today of being in a car accident and becoming paralysed

does that mean you should opt for euthanasia now to avoid the risk?

?most? Reasonably fit and healthy people at 70 will live many more happy years.

Not everyone by any means ends up in a care home with dementia.

with no limits many people might commit suicide when they could have been helped through their difficulties. many older people will feel duty to end their lives to pass on inheritance and “avoid being a burden “. It would certainly be cheaper for society as a whole.

at what point do you start thinking of those who raised and loved you as a burden !

Ah thanks @redboldlip

I completely agree.

Being already retired just means I am further on in my journey than you are, and as I said the money in the bank will soon disappear and then I will have nothing but my superannuation to live on. I am also childfree, with no siblings, so therefore no-one to take care of me. So, what is this huge difference in our lives?

However I'm not sitting here bemoaning my fate as you seem to be. If you are still working what is stopping you from putting some money aside, or getting a better paid job? You already have more options than I do.

No, I'm not in Canada. I think maybe you should stop wallowing in self pity, do you seriously think you are the only person who has ever been in your situation?

Thats part of the problem isn’t it. You can’t wait until you’re incapable.

Absolutely. I can’t understand the mindset of a relatively healthy person who happily left behind her partner,children and grandchildren. They must all have been so sad.

If you were in full health, why wouldn’t you want to get older than that?

I can fully understand if there were health issues, either mental or physical, but having a cut off at 75? My dad is 78- travels around during the summer in his campervan; looks after my brother’s kids during the holidays, and loves it. We hike regularly together… why would anyone choose to miss all that??

I’m all for euthanasia but the truth is if you are not that age yet you do NOT know how you will feel. You may not be ready to say goodbye to your grandchildren, you may still enjoy life and want a bit more. My dad is 95 and in decent health both physically and mentally. He’s going on a cruise next week and he’s certainly not ready to ‘go’ yet.

Because not everyone has the same mindset as your dad. Surely you can understand this?

I read a thread a few months ago where a poster was in her 50s I believe and stated she was quite bored by life. She wasn't depressed but just felt that life was quite repetitive and she was almost exhausted by it all. Lots of posters agreed with her. They weren't depressed either. I don't feel like that myself but I do understand what they mean about something just stop being fun anymore and the balance shifting. Some people have a thirst for life and want to keep going forever but some simply don't. They have had enough. Like a holiday that's dragged on too long. I think we should be able to respect that adults can make this judgement even if we don't share that view ourselves.

What are you suggesting though? That she should live for him and anything less isn't sufficiently considering the impact on others?

People end relationships and divorce people all the time. That's hard and has a big impact on the other person. The other person can torture themselves and feel not good enough but people have to make such serious decisions for themselves ultimately.