To think Gill Pharaoh had the ideal end of life

[CurdinHenry]

Article in the Times about this woman who decided to end her life through voluntary euthanasia at 75. Huge outrage on social media as a result as various people missing the point entirely express fury because they think being very elderly will be great fun. I personally don't want to get older than that. I don't ask anyone else to take the same view but it stresses me out that the naive want to reduce choices available to the prescient. Euthanasia should be available to everyone without condition.

Why selfish? Her husband even understood her reasoning. What's selfish is people who think they should dictate how and when another person should be able to end their life in a dignified manner in their later years, years some people don't even see. She clearly knew her own body and mind and knew she was declining. If anything like a stroke, dementia or cancer happened, she wouldn't have been fit enough to make the decision she did. You'd rather watch an elderly person die a horrific death than understand they want to avoid that. THAT is the epitome of selfish.

Some people will not feel that decline until much later, so their decision would be later. If we would allow assisted dying for the people with the conditions I have mentioned then no one would have to pre-emptively do what she did. You're not going to recover from terminal cancer or dementia, who would want to live like that? Who would want to watch their loved one go through that pain? My next door neighbour was in her 30s with young children when she found out she had cancer. She would not let her children see her because she became skeletal, but still had to die slowly with her wits about her and not seeing her very much loved children. She should have been given the option of assisted dying before she had to go through her horrific death.

It's not an option here at all, so there will be people who do this before they are in that position because they know if they get to that stage, there's no other way out apart from spending your remaining days in pain or fear.

Surely you’re missing the point. You may feel full of life in your 70s but not everyone does. This is simply about choices - how can that be distasteful?

Of course we should all have the choice to make that decision. Just because someone has a different view and makes a different choice to you doesn’t make it wrong, just different. Honestly I don’t know why people get het up about this. While I don’t think 75 is old or past it, this lady felt that for her it was the time to go, and that’s fine with me, she has that choice.

My mother's life at 92 is pretty grim. I don't want it for myself. I'm not religious so only believe in the here and now. Who knows what choices I'll make as I age?

At 74 you're living with the constant threat of serious brain injury from various sources. I think the only people who are comfortable with that are ignorant about what it means. Some fates are worse than death.

For what it’s worth, I don’t think 75 is particularly “elderly” but the whole point about this woman being discussed is she didn’t want to become “very elderly”. Having been a palliative care nurse, she’d seen it and it wasn’t for her. For me, that is her choice. Who am I to dictate what she must do?
And, we allow for example, cancer patients to refuse further treatment, knowing that it means they will die (We do not allow them to do anything to hasten their death but stopping treatment usually means that they will die sooner) Do those of you who are so against assisted dying disagree with that too? Should we force those patients to continue undergoing treatment?
You need two psychiatrists to agree to section a patient. I cannot see why two psychiatrists cannot be involved to assess capacity, ensure a patient isn’t being coerced and sign off on assisted dying, if that is what the patient is choosing.
Both my parents had dementia by their mid 70s, both were aware in the early stages. Both would have chosen to end their life had it been an option, rather than decades of suffering and indignity.

Goady thread. How old are you OP? Young obviously.

75 is not very elderly. It's old, it's an age at which you could die quite naturally but it feels a bit premature.

That woman was mentally ill and killed herself. Its sad for her family. I can't see that her doing it by her own volition would make it better for them.

The years 75 to 85 can be great, holidays and time to relax and do different things from work. The leisure years.

Being a widower is not nice. That poor man. He was robbed of her company in his old age. It's very selfish.

Yes we can all go suddenly downhill from any age. That doesn't mean we should all kill ourselves to avoid a shitty end.

It isn't a goady thread as most people agree with OP's perspective according to the poll. It's obviously a mainstream and popular opinion. I voted that she was not being unreasonable.

That doesn't mean we should all kill ourselves to avoid a shitty end
OP never suggested we all should kill ourselves. It's more that she views it as an ideal end to life. You may disagree but does that mean you should be in the position to prevent her choosing the same for herself? I would argue you absolutely shouldn't.

I see huge parallels with abortion. Ultimately it's about body autonomy and accepting people's wishes. You might find their desires unpalatable, selfish or morally reprehensible but forcing someone to live that doesn't want to can also be viewed as all of these things.

People can't seem to get their head around the fact that a perfectly sane person can choose to end their life. They have simply had enough. We know people have different tolerance levels for everything else and yet we have some that insist that this isn't so for life. We know life can be unbelievably hard for some people and I can totally understand how I could get to the point of wanting to end it all if I became too ill (mentally or physically) or was staring in the face of continuous, imminent decline.

You would be unbelievably selfish to deny me the right to end my life in a civilised way and force me to live a life I don't want to live.

My DH has just turned 76. He is reasonably fit and well and happy like Pharaoh was. If he were to tell me that he felt his life was complete and wanted to die I would be devastated. And we don’t have children and grandchildren. I read that Pharaoh spent her last day sightseeing and having a last dinner with her partner. I would have found that unbearable. Of course if he was terminally ill and suffering it would be different. Or even if he were chronically depressed. But it is not normal to want to end a happy healthy life and we should not pretend that it is.

You can make very similar arguments about abortion. External pressure from society, family and partners, financial and practical considerations feeding into decisions and women feeling they should abort.

Still though we have to accept that the alternative is preventing women who are sound of mind having autonomy over their bodies and that is completely unacceptable.

There is no easy way here but I will always defend bodily autonomy over those who look to restrict on the grounds that some people's choices can be manipulated. People can always be coerced and theoretically they could use this to justify removing all our choices and freedoms.

Provided she was appropriately assessed I don’t have an issue

what does worry me is whether the fear is the lack of care after a stroke. My worry is not so much my health will fail (it will) but that there isn’t healthcare in the Uk that works any more and especially not for older people. I may make the same decision myself

But both my parents and 3 of my grandparents lived for another 20 years after 75, mostly in good health. You know it is not the same for everyone. I just wish that there was an off button for us all to able to press when we have had enough.

It’s MNs so of course 75 isn’t old 🙄

I agree, I think the level of care or lack is the scary thing these days.

Totally agree. It should be up to the person. People on here saying 75 isn’t elderly are wrong. They’ll be saying it’s middle aged next

@UniquePinkSwan I think some actually think it’s not old 🤷🏻‍♀️

Exactly, seems ideal to me. Having lost multiple relatives to painful cancer related drawn out deaths, I'd much rather go on my own terms.

@MrsShawnHatosy

it is not normal to want to end a happy healthy life and we should not pretend that it is.

Have you read what she said about her life? Her own words?

If so, you’ll know that wasn’t the case.

If not, why are you presuming to know how a complete stranger feels better than they know how they feel?

So many people on this thread think their own opinion is more important than Gill Pharaoh’s 🙄.

Thank god none of you seem to be nurses.

There is a lot to be said for taking an early exit before serious deterioration sets in. But at 75 and in good health seems a bit sad.

I agree with this. If someone is terminally ill and wants to choose the manor and time of their death I support that. But if someone who is currently healthy and well wants to end their life that is a mental health issue. Which is sad and very difficult for the person concerned. Mental illness treatment should be far better than it is and we as a society should be treating and supporting people with mental illness far better than we currently do. But the treatment for a mental illness is not to help that person die. Im not against assisted dying but we need safeguards to ensure it is used appropriately. We also need decent palliative care. Being afraid of a terrible death shouldn’t be a reason for assisted dying, everyone should be assured of a dignified death with proper care. Unfortunately we don’t have that in this country currently.

You want to off yourself? Be everybody' guest. Don't push this vile satanic agenda on others. Plenty of people sorted their own wishes themselves in the past, being very considerate of others

Well at 71, I don't spend every day dwelling on the fact I may suffer a 'serious brain injury' at any moment! I spend my days enjoying my life and making the most of every day, in the company of friends who go all the way up to their 90s.
This is a most depressing thread, suggesting everyone in their 70s should prepare for their imminent death and do away with themselves as soon as they begin to suffer aches and pains.
I am off to do a bit of gardening before going to tai Chi with my 82 year old friend.

I think a safe and dignified way to die at a time of your choosing should be available. If you feel fit and well in your 70s then you don't have to do it! My parents are in their early 70s and nowhere near 'past it' yet. However, if they did feel that way then I think the option to end their life should be there.

My grandmother had aggressive lung cancer and died in hospital, which she was adamant she didn't want to do. Why couldn't she decide she was going to die on X day in her own home with whoever she wanted present, having had time to say her goodbyes and put her affairs in order?

This is a most depressing thread, suggesting everyone in their 70s should prepare for their imminent death and do away with themselves as soon as they begin to suffer aches and pains.

Can you link to where this has been suggested? I must have missed that.

Unless you spend all your time wearing a crash helmet the "threat of serious brain injury" surrounds us all - regardless of age.