AIBU to consider leaving our knitting group over its new policy?

[Solentseeker]

I’m in a women’s knitting group. It started as just a group of friends and extended from there. We meet twice weekly in an hall that has to be booked and paid for and go on trips etc so it has become more formal over time and has a treasurer, secretary, social secretary etc. I and two other friends were founder members but we take a back seat in the organisation now. We attract lots of younger members (30-somethings!) which is great. I (early 60s) love socialising with people, hearing their views etc.

The new chairman (woman) has recently decided that we should announce that we are ‘trans friendly’ and try to attract trans women and non-binary people. Apart from the fact that I don’t know what non-binary people are other than people who don’t sign up to gender stereotypes (most of the women currently in the group don’t go in for nails / make up / fake tan etc anyway so what’s the difference?) I don’t want men in the group, trans identifying or otherwise. I’ve been sexually assaulted a few times in my lifetime, as has another of the founder members. We’ve also always appreciated having a space away from the male gaze and voice, where women can have their voice centre stage for once. I know a number of the current members are also extremely concerned about this new push and would feel pushed out too if any men join.

I have no desire to ‘out’ myself as a ‘TERF’ by complaining or pushing back as it would in their eyes make me a ‘bad’ person and I always try to do good by everyone. I just disagree wholeheartedly with the idea that men should be treated as women because they say so. It seems so seething misogynistic. I’m deeply sad about the whole situation and think I’m going to have to leave the club, because the current chairman seems to stand for things that I don’t. I appreciate women’s rights and they don’t seem to give a fig. What do politics have to do with knitting? Do I just leave? Do I wait and see whether any men try to join before leaving? I can’t be arsed to fight back even though I would have a LOT of (currently silent) supporters.

In what way would a woman who identifies as non binary not be welcome in a woman’s group? She’s a woman. It’s not hard.

Do you have daughters in their teens and early 20s?

Through my young adult children's friends I know one transwoman, 8 non-binary people (mostly female) and 6 transmen. All but one of the transmen are same sex attracted.

As staff of the Tavistock said, at this rate there will be no gays and lesbians left.

otherwise you may just as well go ahead and exclude people of colour, gay women or those with any disability whilst you're at it if any 'non-default' human being is seen as politicising a group.

The concept of “non-default” or “default” human doesn’t exist in law, nor should it.

The group is already excluding men. Which is legal.

Excluding disabled people is not legal.

Excluding people by colour - white, black or brown, or anything else - is not legal.

Excluding gay and bi-sexual people is legal (surprisingly, to some).

None of these depend on majority/minority considerations or default/special categories.

It’s not legal however to include some men (those who identify as women) and not all men.

I don’t think disabled people are cool enough for her. Transwomen are way more vunerable and marginalised than disabled people I think in her eyes.

The other significant asymmetry is that transmen (trans identifying women) who join a women's group are being honest about their sex. They're women, they know they're women, they would prefer not to be but they're accepting the facts.

Transwomen (trans identifying men) who join a women's group are not accepting the fact of their sex or being honest about it. If they were, they'd join men's groups.

I’m sure if any trans women were interested they would simply ask to join? The current leader’s intention to make a big announcement does sound like virtue signalling to me.

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand your question. A non-binary person (not 'woman' - if they presented and identified as a woman, then they'd likely not be referring to themselves as non-binary) likely may not be female-presenting.

It can be difficult for anyone entering spaces that are typically dominated by a gender that don't conform.

They don’t have to conform to anything. It’s a sex based group. They are their sex - woman. They can join and be amongst like-minded women. If they have an issue with that then that’s a ‘them’ issue. They need to learn to cope better.

Are people threatening to leave the group because of allowing disabled people to join, though (like OP)?

Honestly, how different is it from being 'concerned' that installing an accessibility ramp is going to change the group into a disability activist group? Whichever way you look at it - it's an incredible reach before they've even invited someone in.

They don't want to set up a women's group because they already have one. So maybe people who want to change the group from what it has always been could leave and set up a mixed group of their own instead of hijacking a group who are perfectly happy the way they are!

It does, it’s a definite red flag that she is power hungry and not respectful of the group culture. I’d be looking at how to get her out of Chair role.

I'm not really sure the fact of who they're attracted to is relevant. It's a knitting group not a knocking shop

Honestly, how different is it from being 'concerned' that installing an accessibility ramp is going to change the group into a disability activist group?

Because disabled women are women. Like clever women, dark-haired women, and rich women.

”Trans women” are not women. Just like sea horses are not horses. “Trans women” are all men.

So is there a physical exam prior to being allowed in?
Not trying to be facetious, but how is the 'sex at birth' solution going to work if they are not presenting as a woman physically?

That is a huge and massive assumption.

YANBU, OP.

No. No physical exam. Thanks. Because firstly in almost all cases it’s blatantly obvious. And secondly the attraction for some trans-identifying men to enter women’s facilities is about validation and being “welcomed”. Thirdly, if some men lie and get away with it, it speaks about them, and can’t be helped.

You may not be facetious, but you are definitely playing dumb.
I cannot believe that you really, really think it is not possible to tell someone's sex just by looking at them: face shape, gait, build, hand size, voice, etc. etc.

Humans have evolved to be able to tell the sex of someone at a glance (although there is some anecdotal evidence that women are better at this than men, for obvious evolutionary reasons)

Hand size -and build - because all "real" women are (or should be) dainty little things.
Apparently.

Non-binary people come in 2 types (male and female, if you prefer that to men and women).

The female ones are 'presenting as women physically' because they are women and they are physically present.

If you mean 'But how can you possibly tell what sex they are if they're wearing trousers?' you're being ridiculous. I'm currently wearing jeans, a plain T-shirt, no makeup, no jewellery. Nobody would have any doubt whatsoever that I'm a woman. I'm not 'presenting' as one, I simply am one. People can tell. They're very good at it, for excellent evolutionary reasons.

Heh heh. Have you not seen these types? Go look at the one at Aberdeen uni that has been gleeful over what happened to Ann Widdecombe. He’s a typical example of the look.

Unless I missed something (possible - I haven't read through all 20+ pages) I don't believe OP was asking about the legality.

I encountered something recently on another thread about a friend recording another friend's conversation without her consent. Whether it's 'right' or 'AIBU' doesn't have to have any relation to criminal law or act of parliament.

But this group had been set up just for women!

Gross comment.

These comments are as ridiculous and hysterical as a man not wanting to join a certain gym in case a gay man tries to bum him against his will.

And people are still wondering why you can't just say ""all are welcome" when some of these knuckle-dragging opinions are still commonly and proudly held.