AIBU to consider leaving our knitting group over its new policy?

[Solentseeker]

I’m in a women’s knitting group. It started as just a group of friends and extended from there. We meet twice weekly in an hall that has to be booked and paid for and go on trips etc so it has become more formal over time and has a treasurer, secretary, social secretary etc. I and two other friends were founder members but we take a back seat in the organisation now. We attract lots of younger members (30-somethings!) which is great. I (early 60s) love socialising with people, hearing their views etc.

The new chairman (woman) has recently decided that we should announce that we are ‘trans friendly’ and try to attract trans women and non-binary people. Apart from the fact that I don’t know what non-binary people are other than people who don’t sign up to gender stereotypes (most of the women currently in the group don’t go in for nails / make up / fake tan etc anyway so what’s the difference?) I don’t want men in the group, trans identifying or otherwise. I’ve been sexually assaulted a few times in my lifetime, as has another of the founder members. We’ve also always appreciated having a space away from the male gaze and voice, where women can have their voice centre stage for once. I know a number of the current members are also extremely concerned about this new push and would feel pushed out too if any men join.

I have no desire to ‘out’ myself as a ‘TERF’ by complaining or pushing back as it would in their eyes make me a ‘bad’ person and I always try to do good by everyone. I just disagree wholeheartedly with the idea that men should be treated as women because they say so. It seems so seething misogynistic. I’m deeply sad about the whole situation and think I’m going to have to leave the club, because the current chairman seems to stand for things that I don’t. I appreciate women’s rights and they don’t seem to give a fig. What do politics have to do with knitting? Do I just leave? Do I wait and see whether any men try to join before leaving? I can’t be arsed to fight back even though I would have a LOT of (currently silent) supporters.

There are certain types of trans 'women' that like to muscle in on women's groups to validate themselves.

Say not happy @Solentseeker use your voice. Bloody men like that want to intrude on everything

"meat suit?"
You talk about trans women having issues but yours are clearly on show here and say a lot more about you then it does about them.

Women are intimidated by men regularly. Women are intimidated by men dressed as women, regularly. men dressed as women are in fact clearly psychopathically abusive, regularly. Women are intimidated by the double agents that are women advocating for the men dressed as women.

it’s time to take care of the women, and the leave the mentally ill and the Stockholm syndrome behind.

women deserve safe spaces. The women who have been bullied into submission by men wearing women’s clothes, into thinking they have to let them in, are basically women that need to be deprogrammed. As that usnt going to happen, they have to be ignored, as we ignore all the ‘ care in the community’ unfortunates wandering about talking drivel.

I'm glad you understand so clearly.

Yes, many women find the whole idea of transwomen inherently offensive, because putting on 'woman face' and then claiming to be a woman is offensive. If they just claimed to be transwomen (as a distinct thing), not actual women, that would not be offensive.

However, other women couldn't care less what transwomen wear, or how much make up they put on, as long as the transwomen understand that they are not women, they are men.

Yes, many transwomen are sexual fetishists. Unfortunately, as there is no practical way to separate out the fetishists from those with gender dysphoria or gender dysmorphia, all transwomen have to be lumped together.
And of course women don't want men with sexual fetishes in their spaces.

I'm not sure this counts as 'othering' or prejudice so much as common sense - if you can't separate out the fetishists, all men have to stay out. Or if is a mixed sex group, we have the choice to join or not, and if we join we are prepared for men being in the room, some of whom may be fetishists or predators.

Is it certain that there aren't any transwomen members already? Unless I have a very naive idea of what a women's knitting group gets up to behind closed doors, it's hard to see how a biological man whose appearance, demeanour, voice etc. seem feminine would be out of place.

It's not prejudice it is the preference not to have men aping women wanting to join the group to get validated as women - because that is what they will do. Perfectly reasonable.
And she would accept a mixed group with a vote for it (and probably leave) but not a women's group that includes transwomen who are men because that would be a mixed group pretending to be a women's group and I think it would be unlawful unless non-trans men are admitted. You cannot admit 'some men' and not others.

I have no issue with trans men. It’s transwomen I have an issue with. To me it’s EXACTLY like Rachel Doezale, claiming yo be a woman when you’re not just because you feel like it. Cultural appropriation at the absolute worst. Reduces womanhood to a pile of stereotypes. Prove me wrong!

But if it’s decided to open the group to men I’d not like it but I’d not definitely leave if a transwomen decided to join. There would then be no limits as to who could then join.

This.

🤣 come off it, lets not play the "No one can tell" fantasy game

The problem is that this chair wants to advertise being "inclusive" and if you disagree the young members may judge you. There's no avoiding the fact that younger members may agree with her. Also if they publicise it then some men are likely to come along.
FWIW I belong to a similar group and one woman brought her frock wearing husband along. I'm torn. He's a nice enough bloke, doesn't push the trans thing but I feel bad for her and fundemtally uncomfortable with it. Plus a good percentage of the women are performatively friendly with him.

What is the difference though in a woman claiming to be a man and a man claiming to be a woman.
Explain like I'm 5 because I just don't get it. You either accept that someone can be trans or you don't

The woman claiming to be a man is actually a woman. So trans or not, she is fine to have around - because she is a woman.
The man claiming to be a woman is actually a man. So trans or not, he is NOT fine to have around, because he is a man.

It is not the trans that counts, it is the sex.

Edite to explain further:
Transmen are not a threat. Men (as a class) are.

This. It would be unlawful.

You can not call yourselves a women's group if males are permitted to join.

Other men would also have to be permitted if they wished to join because you couldn't allow some men to join and not others.

It would become a mixed sex group, which is fine if it's what the members want, but it would no longer be a women's group.

If it meets twice a week I think one women only session and one everyone session (men included, some crafty boys might like to join the hobby ) is fair enough and people can choose which night they prefer

Re. the Rachel Doezale case: she was a member of the privileged class (white) identifying into the oppressed class - just like a transwoman (man, privileged) identifies into the oppressed class (women).
This is not OK.

On the other hand, a transman is a member of the oppressed class (women) identifying into the privileged class.
The oppressed class (women) are not threatened or disadvantaged by the transman, and neither are the privileged class (men) threatened or disadvantaged by a transman.

However, some men would not like a woman (a transman) in their male-only spaces and I totally respect that.

If you can't see the difference between natal females and natal males, I am not sure how to help you.

One sex class is responsible for violent and sexual crime, for dominating social spaces and for disregarding boundaries. Transwomen and other men belong to that sex class

In my experience of trans people, transmen tend to be identifying away from something while transwomen are identifying towards something. Transmen are trying to escape womanhood and what being female has cost them. Transwomen are running towards a concept of femininity in their heads.

It's understandable that some women find a concept of womanhood being based on oppressively stereotypes offensive.

None whatsoever but I’m a woman so it doesn’t affect me. And also the vast majority of transmen are confused ASD women who do not associate with female stereotypes and so feel they can’t be women. I can’t believe you don’t know this is a thing

It's a very small community she wants to 'attract' - why this community specifically?
Why not disabled knitters? Why not teenage knitters? Can you not suggest the message 'Welcome to all knitters' ?

ask for a vote seems the only fair way

Someone has to put their head above the parapet OP, might as well be you. Insist on a secret ballot. A bit of paper with yes or no written on it, placed in a box is all it needs. My guess is that if it was a raise your hand type vote, it would pass, make it secret then dollars to doughnuts it will voted out.

Sounds like she is just being over PC. Lots of men knit ,yes, but youve said she wants to target trans and non binary people. To be inclusive why not just say "all welcome" and see who turns up?

It's a shame OP sees the inclusion of a trans woman as 'political'. Obviously you are free to remain or leave, nor should you feel it's necessary to give a reason for leaving either (unless of course you do want to make a political statement in why you're leaving). And for other commenters saying it's 'your' group - it sounds like that ceased to be the case when you took a backseat and appointed a chairperson and governing committee.

In all honesty - a transwoman is probably going to have the least male-gaze influence (especially when compared to the populist movement of tradwives amongst predominantly cis-women). I would assume based on the hobby itself, they're looking for a female-friendly environment.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to not want the group to become an activist group, but the mere existence of a non-binary person or a transwoman does not automatically mean that will happen. Most likely they just want a 'safe space' and an inclusive club to socialise just like every other member.

I think it's probably a little judgemental to assume before they have even been invited in - otherwise you may just as well go ahead and exclude people of colour, gay women or those with any disability whilst you're at it if any 'non-default' human being is seen as politicising a group.

The problem is that many non-binary people and transwomen are regulary (and intentionally) excluded from both male and female dominated spaces.... so everytime they attempt to integrate in a group is them taking a real risk (sometimes to their feelings, but often to their own safety).

I don't blame them from wanting a more obvious invite.

There's something really depressing about this, OP. You founded a group as a space for women. It happens to involve knitting instead of sitting around staring. I'm guessing the knitting serves as a hook to get women together, not so much an end in itself. Now your chair wants to involve transwomen (men). That's the end of the women's space. Some PPs have misunderstood - you accepted that if it were changed to a mixed group, men could attend (and you might leave as you would prefer it wasn't). But it would not remain a women's group with transwomen present. Some say well, you could leave and set up a separate women's group. But you already set one up, this one. What if you did and the same thing happened again? Should you then set up another group when someone tries to admit transwomen again? Then another when it happens a third time? This being continually expected to move aside for men - it's so drudging.

Not that you're generalising or anything?
How many do you know? Well enough to substantiate this claim? I've only known one. Through work. Perfectly nice person. I know of another but not personally. Works in a shop by me. Again perfectly nice person
I can only speak from my experience. Given that transmen make up a tiny percentage of the population what's your personal experience?