Autism vs trans - clashing views

[sunshine244]

I'm in a tricky position with my AuDHD 12 year old. There is a trans boy in their class who recently started using a new name and pronouns he/him.

My son is very black and white thinking and very scientific. He is a bit grumpy at having to learn a new name as he struggles when e.g. teachers or family/friends get married and change name. But he has accepted that pretty quickly. But he flat out refuses to use the new pronouns as he says a girl can't just decide to be a boy unless they have surgery (which at this age of course isn't going to happen).

I sympathise with his as personally I don't think social transitioning this young is sensible. But I am also aware that the child's parents are very pushy about the situation and have already posted in the parents group about children bullying by not using the right pronouns/name. They got a lot of support from other parents.

I suppose my aibu is should i be forcing my son to use the child's preferred pronouns?

Yabu - I need to push my son to use preferred he/him pronouns

Yanbu - let child decide which pronouns to use or try to avoid pronouns

If it’s helpful @sunshine244 Transgender Trend have produced a free resource.

https://www.transgendertrend.com/product/autism-gender-identity/

I'd just tell him to stay away. You only need to use pronouns if you talk about someone so he can just avoid talking about them.

You have partially misunderstood. I was commenting on a PP who said something like deliberately ignoring a colleague’s pronoun choices could get you into trouble in the workplace. I believe this is a possibility.

Ignoring a colleague’s pronoun choice would (or rather, should) not get you into trouble in the workplace.

No one can be forced to call a man “she”. He is blatantly, not a “she”.

It’s perfectly possible to interact with people at work without using wrong-sex pronouns and without breaching any policy or law.

I’m not the person you asked but yes, this is what I would do. People change their names for all sorts of reasons- some names are more masculine or feminine but anyone can be named anything. I’ve known men with what I think of as female names and vice versa (not trans people). Naming conventions are different across different parts of the world and through different times in history. I’d have no problem calling a trans-identifying man ‘Jane’. Yes, in his head it’s because I see him as a woman, while in my head, it’s because some men have female names.

I can’t apply the same logic to pronouns. British English uses pronouns according to the sex of the person or animal being discussed (apart from when we’re talking about a hypothetical person or a person whose sex isn’t known, in which case it’s ‘they/them’). I use he/him for males and she/her for females. If I genuinely didn’t know what sex a person was, I’d use they/them (but this has never happened to me yet and I’ve been around a long time).

So yes, I can use ‘Jane’ for a man, but not ‘she’. In reality, this might mean I would avoid spending much time with Jane, which would likely be interpreted as pretending trans people don’t exist. I do acknowledge that people exist who have trans identities, but I don’t share their beliefs about reality so any sort of friendship would likely be difficult.

Women can’t live as men.

But if you mean women who mistakenly think they are men then they don’t tend to dress in fetish like the men do so that is less applicable.

And yes, I feel exactly the same about public money being used on certain “treatments” for women who think they’re men.

I find it offensive that women who feel a certain way about themselves or who have certain “manly” interested or hobbies or hairstyles think that that makes them a man.

Its offensive to men in the same way womanface is offensive to women.

Just like blackface is offensive.

Refusing to use any pronouns and just using the trans identifying persons name is considered the correct legal compromise.
This is because a person with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment must not be harassed by being unnecessarily referred to by their biological sex (there will be times when it is nesscary to mention the person's actual sex).
This is also because a person with the protected characteristic of belief or even lack of belief cannot be harassed and compelled to use wrong sex pronouns.

So it is correct to say that nobody has to use chosen pronouns however it would be wrong to say that he can use correct pronouns in front of this child. Comprising and only using the child's name is the only way forward for everybody.

I think there are people on this thread who have suggested that using the correctly-sexed pronouns for this child would be equivalent to “being an arse”.

And if not on this thread then there are certainly a lot of TRAs who have said that elsewhere, and indeed even more hyperbolic statements about “literal violence” of “misgendering”.

Reassure your own teenager that you agree and value his stance on this issue but to make school life easier just go along with whatever the school and social consensus is when he goes back because in the grand scheme of things it’s irrelevant to him and his life. As you say he’s intelligent so he can understand this. “It’s not the hill to die on baby” basically.

Your DS isn't wrong. My DC is AuDHD and continued to call friends by their given name after they announced they were now the opposite sex.

One is a real activist and has a go at DC for disrespecting them by still calling them Sue and not Bob. DC explained that due to their AuDHD they just can't retain info and Sue is Sue. (By the time they leave school, Sue has dropped Bob and reverted to Sue again, as did 99% of the girls who claimed they were a boy).

DC is fully aware that a person cannot change sex.

Trans children/ adults are at significantly higher risk of suicide . I think I would be teaching my children, autistic or not,to be kind and friendly. I dont think we should leave it to school kids to sort out a human rights act.

I just looked and it is quite easy to find cases where people have got into trouble for refusing to use people’s preferred pronouns. Eg This man who lost his tribunal:

https://www.bmj.com/content/367/bmj.l5925

I imagine/guess you’ll be fine if you avoid he/she and use they or you. But I’m no expert.

This is incorrect. You misunderstand what they protected characteristic means.

The protected characteristic is undergoing transition. You cannot be fired or discriminated against when it comes to housing or things that that due to under going transition.

There is no obligation to go along with preferred pronouns.

This is exactly why the trans movement
has been so morally repugnant in telling kids that their mental health depends on other people using their ‘chosen pronouns’ and respecting their ‘chosen identity’. Making yourself hostage to what every individual you meet thinks about you is a highway to zero resilience and dreadful MH.

All the data points to vulnerable children being disproportionately likely to claim trans identities. The way the ideology is marketed ‘ affirm me or I’ll die’ is cruel, wrong and dangerously irresponsible.

Every adult who has endorsed and supported this child harming movement needs to reflect on this.

This movement has been marketed to suit adult agendas, not vulnerable children’s needs. There are adults with settled gender dysphoria who chose to manage those feelings without transitioning. Why do you think the trans movement never platforms or promotes their views and stories? If they cared about trans kids and adults, they would, right? After all, Learning to manage those feelings without lifelong medication and surgery and all the life long and often severe side effects of that is absolutely the best outcome, hands down.

But this is never even presented by the trans movement as an option. Because the trans movement is not about the individual and what is best for them, it’s about shoring up the ideology. Despite the harm that causes.

This is incorrect

autistic children are at a higher risk and once you normalise for this - ie account for the fact that many trans children are also autistic- then the disgusting and inaccurate suicide argument is easily proven to be false

however people exploring their gender in online communities ( I have been there ) are encouraged to think and talk about suicide ideation against all the principles and guidelines of organisationS helping to prevent suicide

Well said @peaceatnight

I never said that there is.
I specifically said that nobody can be compelled to use wrong sexed pronouns which is why the compromise of using the chosen name is the correct way forward for all

Usually when a child has had severe mental health or behavioural
issues in the past, and this is now lauded as the reason for it. Accept it or you’re bigoted is their way of forcing everyone else to accept change except where it’s actually needed.

“In general life you can speak how you like.”

No you can’t. Harassment and hate speech have repercussions.

Harressment - so he isn’t be harnessed to call someone something they are not?

respect goes both ways

Not true.
Extremely harmful frequently rolled-out transactivist trope.

Any risks of suicide are related to multiple possible underlying factors which are what led to the gender questioning of the child in the first place; and/or being groomed on line to say they will kill themselves if they are not affirmed.

I agree that the factors relating children' mental health are complex and multifaceted. Amongst those factors will be about acceptance, social cohesien and identity. My original statement still stands <<I think I would be teaching my children, autistic or not,to be kind and friendly. >>

Does this work the other way around too? Do you teach the trans identified kids to be kind and friendly to the kids who don't remember their preferred pronouns?

I think most parents encourage their dc to be kind to everyone, don't they? Regardless of your beliefs, we're talking about kids here!

I don’t think that ever is something that would be taken into consideration @peaceatnight !
From the posters on here and in general life who support this ideology “bekind” is always a one way street!