Autism vs trans - clashing views

[sunshine244]

I'm in a tricky position with my AuDHD 12 year old. There is a trans boy in their class who recently started using a new name and pronouns he/him.

My son is very black and white thinking and very scientific. He is a bit grumpy at having to learn a new name as he struggles when e.g. teachers or family/friends get married and change name. But he has accepted that pretty quickly. But he flat out refuses to use the new pronouns as he says a girl can't just decide to be a boy unless they have surgery (which at this age of course isn't going to happen).

I sympathise with his as personally I don't think social transitioning this young is sensible. But I am also aware that the child's parents are very pushy about the situation and have already posted in the parents group about children bullying by not using the right pronouns/name. They got a lot of support from other parents.

I suppose my aibu is should i be forcing my son to use the child's preferred pronouns?

Yabu - I need to push my son to use preferred he/him pronouns

Yanbu - let child decide which pronouns to use or try to avoid pronouns

While I do agree that's the case for a typical child it's hard for my autistic child to completely change how they have spoken for 12 years.

They usually refer to others as he or she. Its what they have always known. To change this just for one child to only use their name or avoid pronouns is a huge challenge. Especially when they still look like a girl.

As a similar but different issue they got to know the person who is now my best friend as X's Mum instead of her own name. Despite being told umpteen times what her name is and that it's fine to use it she has stuck as being called X's Mum the majority of the time. My son has a whole host of other ND diagnoses including dyslexia, and despite being intelligent these sorts of changes of language/category seem to be exceptionally tough for him even when he wants to change it.

This shouldn't be your son's battle to fight. Can you ask for a meeting with someone at the school, form tutor or Senco, say it's about a sensitive issue. Find out what their approach is and work from there? Ignore the girl in question's parents. This is about your son's relationship with the school.

Get assurance they won't be allowing this girl into your son's changing rooms or loos for a start. That would certainly impact on his privacy and dignity and is a more serious concern than anything about pronouns. Most transboys don't even want to so it's probably fine. Ask what approach they're taking with pronouns, explain he feels he's being asked to lie and that's making him very uncomfortable. School have created the problem by pretending a girl is a boy, what is their solution? You could read relevant schools guidance before you go and refer to it as necessary. Safe Schools Alliance or Transgender Trend may be good sources to direct you to the relevant bits.

When you've found out what the situation is, then you can discuss with your son. What's being asked, and what the options are if he doesn't want to comply. It's good he already understands about religion, because he will be able to understand this as another odd belief system.

And you can decide if there's anything you want to/are able to fight at a higher level via the complaints system.

Adults have given this child an opportunity to power trip over all the other children. Can’t you see the issues with that?

Do you think that anyone could take legal action against the OPs son for breaching the Equality Act?

They can't. The Equality Act imposes no obligations on individuals

Gender is the social interpretation of sex and can only be expressed within the range of that sex. A transwoman can only be a males surface level impression of a woman/girl and visa versa for transmen.

And that's something to take up with the other adults, and not with a 12 year old girl who no doubt has vulnerabilities also.

The employment tribunal gave misgendering as a specific example! And I was trying to illustrate that it’s not just misgendering it’s lots of related behaviours as well, some of which have been advised on this thread!

But, sigh, yes my understanding of the law in the England and Wales at the moment is that deliberate misgendering is not a crime in and of itself but it could very well amount to, or contribute to the crimes of discrimination and harassment depending on the overall facts.

I wouldn’t be asking my non autistic children to lie to this child either. It absolutely will be more difficult for OPs son not to just say what he sees and refuse to lie, but my perfectly typical daughter would also point blank refuse to pander to this girls delusions and does refuse with the two girls with special boy feelings in her school. Teaching children that they must lie based on someone else’s feelings is dangerous.

BUT for his benefit, I’d tell him the truth. This girl has a mental condition being encouraged by the adults around her, and his life will be easier if he just avoids her and avoids talking about her, because some adults are desperate to look nice without considering consequences, and avoiding conflict is sometimes just going to be a better path than telling the truth.

The SENCO won’t be there when he leaves school, becomes an adult or at home. He/she won’t even be there much within school. It is very much mostly the parents job too they will be the ones to pick up any flack at school and beyond with zero support.

I think it should always be fine to largely ignore someone you don’t get on with. Actively bullying them is different. You can’t make people like each other, especially at 12. I wish my school bullies had just kept away from me! If he has to talk to her for school reasons, I would just advise him to be pleasant and to attempt to avoid pronouns.

Trans identifying people need to get used to the fact that they cant coerse others into acts of religious observance or compelle their speach.
Trans identifying people need to learn to live in the real world where other people have rights too.
Trans identifying people need to understand that other people will never truly see them as the opposite sex because they aren't.

Refusing to participate in someone else's religion or delusion does not make someone a "dick head", however demanding that someone else adheres to your religion or affirms your religion against their wishes makes you a dick head.

Sending a letter to someone isn’t a crime in and of itself but can contribute to a number of crimes where there is actual criminal behaviour involved. It’s not illegal to observe someone’s sex or to cause offence. And higher courts have tended to overturn on appeal. I don’t know of any “misgendering” case that’s survived an appeal. See r v Kate Scottow.

No the Equality Act points are more in relation to general assertions about the fact that gender critical views are recognised.

Interestingly though the age of criminal responsibility in the England Wales is 10 so, in theory at least, if the OP‘s child did follow some of the advice on this thread they could find themselves being investigated by the police. But in reality I imagine that the first action for the school would be likely to be their own behaviour policy.

Nonetheless, if we teach children that deliberate misgendering or other discrimination is fine, and that anyone who identifies as trans should be treated as an abusive, coercive, fantasist they are likely to have some serious problems in the workplace when they are older unless the law in England and Wales changes before then.

Exactly, I absolutely don’t think he should be arguing the toss with her personally. But he shouldn’t be forced to adhere to it either. Schools should not be giving these children the idea that everything they demand will be granted.

What crime do you think may be committed if the advice on this thread is followed?

Schools might have an influence over the public appearance of a teenage playground but it’s smoke and mirrors.

You can’t make teenagers be friends with people they don’t like.

Teenagers can become isolated socially at school and there is nothing a school can do about it. Yes they can have a “buddy up” rota or lunch clubs for them not to be alone but they can’t force friendships, real friendships.

So if you demand that specific conditions should apply to your, and just your teenager, you could end up making situations a whole heap worse.

In this case, in an ideal playground, the teens who don’t care about what pronouns someone wants at that time would hang out and the ones who think you can’t change pronouns hang out separately so conflict is avoided. And everyone tows the school line whatever that is because that’s just how it is.

Believing you can change sex is NOT worthy of respect in a democratic society ( woriads ) . This comes from the Grainger case and was used in the Forester case where a GC view was Woriads . In the case Smith v Northumberland it was held that GI and that it is possible to change sex the opposite was found and therefore is not Woriads ( just like flat waters or young earth creationism ) no matter how much you want it to be .

OP ignore the bullying from the trans parents , your son is correct.

The CPS had to withdraw similar schools guidance (that ignoring and othering “trans children” and saying they shouldn’t be in the opposite sex space was a hate crime) when challenged legally.

So take the drama out of it by steering him away from engaging in the debate.

My son's in an autism unit. A whole community of literal, black and white thinkers including some who are trans. None of them are stomping around demanding to use the original names or pronouns of their friends because of their autism. They are just quietly getting on with treating all their peers with respect, just like their teachers model to them, whatever the teachers' and students' private thoughts on trans identification. Being in specialist they do of course get more help with this than your son, but they are likely coming from a position of higher needs too.

"Scientific" is not a helpful label here. Most of the many trans autistic students I've come across study science. My autistic DC1 doesn't know the given names of half their uni friends. He needs to be able to navigate this social situation without repeatedly imposing his own choice of pronouns on other people.

Exactly. The trans rights supporters will tell you that all young people are on board, so surely she’ll have plenty of friends and supporters?

Yes, autistic children are more likely to come to the conclusion that they are better off being the opposite sex for lots of reasons.

• boys who aren't into boy things
• boys who find girls company easier and feel they should be 'one of the girls'.
• children who are looking for reasons they don't fit in can latch onto this as being the reason. The subsequent acceptance and love bombing and protection of their new special identity becomes proof they had drawn the right conclusion
• boys who experience feeling vulnerable and scared and translate that as feeling feminine
• girls who are told they cant play football etc. and notice that if they were a bit they would have different opportunities in school automatically
• girls who realise theft are at more risk because of their sex and want to opt out

Well it depends on the individual

Some teenagers NT, ND, trans, straight, gay, combinations doesn’t matter, some have no friends regardless it’s not what you are it’s who you are that matters.

So yes OP’s son might struggle with new pronouns but his friends won’t care, so if he messes up he can just say a parrot sorry and go hang out with his friends because they won’t care.

They would be skating on thin ice with the Equality Act. I read about this somewhere recently. If you accidentally forget the pronoun or have explained that transgender is against your beliefs, you may be on solid ground but if you are deemed to be deliberately using the ‘wrong’ pronoun to humiliate your colleague, you could get into trouble.

i’m not a lawyer.

The Equality Act is civil law so no crime would be committed by breaching that. Also, OPs son is an individual so the Equality Act places no legal obligations on him

The SENCO won’t be there when he leaves school, becomes an adult or at home. He/she won’t even be there much within school. It is very much mostly the parents job too they will be the ones to pick up any flack at school and beyond with zero support.

If it was just up to me as a parent I'd say it's fine to tell the truth if you need to say something, but don't go out of your way to keep pointing out she's a girl as would be bullying. It's not just up to me because school are involved.

The immediate problem is the potential for the child to be punished by school for telling the truth. Or maybe they won't - if OP hasn't spoken to school this may just be the other parent trying to impose her beliefs.

In general life you can speak how you like.

In an employment situation, I'd suggest OP's son, as an adult, take it up with the employer if he feels his speech is being compelled and in particular if he feels he's being discriminated against due to compelled speech being particularly difficult due to his disability. As he's now a child, I think this is one it's appropriate for OP to support him with.