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AIBU?

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Aibu thinking Scots shouldn't be wanting Argentina to win against England?

850 replies

Engerlund · 13/07/2026 18:49

It's getting beyond banter now imo.

I know plenty of Scots agree with me.

I'm half Scottish (dad) so always support both. In the past I'd probably want Scotland to win if it was them against England to be honest. Although now because of the Argentina support I'm going off supporting Scotland.

I desperately want England to win this one more than against any other team.

OP posts:
Persephonia1966 · 16/07/2026 16:14

Freinddilemma · 16/07/2026 16:02

The day Scotland can lecture us on diversity is the day they have anything even remotely resembling Bradford. Or Birmingham. Or Slough. Or Manchester. Or the entirety of London. Or....you get the picture.

Its easy as fuck to consider yourselves non racist when you have under 200 people per square mile. We in England have over a thousand. You sit there in splendid isolation preaching tolerance. We actually live it in our day to day experience, navigating patchworks of communities with conflicting priorities and interests not just in our cities but in our market towns.

Call us when you actually find yourselves competing for resources. I predict this will be around 2050, in light of rising temperature levels and population growth.

Except, the people living in the most diverse areas are also the people who are the most accepting, on the whole, of immigration and least fearful of other groups. Not that there aren't issues as with everywhere. But the people living in ethnically mixed cities have less of a problem with racial diversity than people who don't.

Britain as a whole actually has integration figures most countries would kill for and different ethnic groups have become steadily more integrated with each other over time.

This is like when people who don't live in London try to claim London is a crime ridden hell hole. And then argue with the people who actually live in London and like it that they must be wrong.

Differentforgirls · 16/07/2026 16:17

Persephonia1966 · 16/07/2026 16:14

Except, the people living in the most diverse areas are also the people who are the most accepting, on the whole, of immigration and least fearful of other groups. Not that there aren't issues as with everywhere. But the people living in ethnically mixed cities have less of a problem with racial diversity than people who don't.

Britain as a whole actually has integration figures most countries would kill for and different ethnic groups have become steadily more integrated with each other over time.

This is like when people who don't live in London try to claim London is a crime ridden hell hole. And then argue with the people who actually live in London and like it that they must be wrong.

Pretty much like you’ve done throughout the thread.

Persephonia1966 · 16/07/2026 16:17

(not saying that the Scottish posters on here have issues with it or that they are racist because they don't live in a diverse area. Just countering the idea that there's some downtrodden underclass of people in ethnically diverse areas who hate it and are being unfairly lectured.)

Persephonia1966 · 16/07/2026 16:22

Differentforgirls · 16/07/2026 16:17

Pretty much like you’ve done throughout the thread.

When I criticised Argentina for being racist? I wasn't criticising Argentinia. I was criticising the players who said the racist things for being racist.
Or when I implied that the financial scandal around Sturgeon might mean she isn't a 100% honest person?
Or when I criticised Nigel Farage for the same thing?

For clarification. I don't think everyone in the Scottish independence movement is dodgy, or every Argentinian is racist, or every member of Reform is out for money. Just the people that are dodgy are dodgy, the people that are racist are racist, and the people receiving craptocoin are motivated by money. Which bit of that is a problem?

Differentforgirls · 16/07/2026 16:27

Persephonia1966 · 16/07/2026 16:22

When I criticised Argentina for being racist? I wasn't criticising Argentinia. I was criticising the players who said the racist things for being racist.
Or when I implied that the financial scandal around Sturgeon might mean she isn't a 100% honest person?
Or when I criticised Nigel Farage for the same thing?

For clarification. I don't think everyone in the Scottish independence movement is dodgy, or every Argentinian is racist, or every member of Reform is out for money. Just the people that are dodgy are dodgy, the people that are racist are racist, and the people receiving craptocoin are motivated by money. Which bit of that is a problem?

You’ve dodged everything people have posted to you!

Persephonia1966 · 16/07/2026 16:32

Differentforgirls · 16/07/2026 16:27

You’ve dodged everything people have posted to you!

I think we will just have to agree to disagree on the content of Sturgeon's character. My view is either she knew something of what her husband was doing, or was much less alert thanshe should have been. You clearly like her no matter what. Neither of us will persuade the other differently and since we can't see her soul we will never know for certain. I hope one day she moves back to Scotland as you earlier wished.

Differentforgirls · 16/07/2026 16:38

Persephonia1966 · 16/07/2026 16:32

I think we will just have to agree to disagree on the content of Sturgeon's character. My view is either she knew something of what her husband was doing, or was much less alert thanshe should have been. You clearly like her no matter what. Neither of us will persuade the other differently and since we can't see her soul we will never know for certain. I hope one day she moves back to Scotland as you earlier wished.

Drivel.

Firetreev · 16/07/2026 16:48

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 16/07/2026 16:02

There are a very small, very organised number of people concertedly spreading
Far-Right hate across the central belt in Scotland right now. It's only just starting to hit the news, but it's been going on for a couple of years at least, and the concerning thing about it is that these people struggle to tie their own shoelaces, so anything they organise tends to quickly fall apart due to infighting and recriminations, but this is not.

It stinks to high-heaven of something being actively funded by people or groups who are actually far more sinister than the morons fronting it, and it's a little bit concerning to say the least.

Edited

It's being funded by Russia and Musk. Musk literally sent Tommy Robinson to Moscow with his father. The sooner we start calling out these far right activists for the traitors that they are the better. These supporters of Musk, Robinson and Low are literally doing the Kremlin's bidding for them, but are far too stupid to realise what they're doing. They're not patriots, they're racist scoundrels and as with most racists pretty thick too.

Firetreev · 16/07/2026 16:49

Firetreev · 16/07/2026 16:48

It's being funded by Russia and Musk. Musk literally sent Tommy Robinson to Moscow with his father. The sooner we start calling out these far right activists for the traitors that they are the better. These supporters of Musk, Robinson and Low are literally doing the Kremlin's bidding for them, but are far too stupid to realise what they're doing. They're not patriots, they're racist scoundrels and as with most racists pretty thick too.

Edited

I think a lot of them will actually be being actively watched by the security agencies.

Persephonia1966 · 16/07/2026 17:17

Firetreev · 16/07/2026 16:49

I think a lot of them will actually be being actively watched by the security agencies.

Surely Lowe himself can't be liked by anyone in Scotland? He's made a lot of comments that make it quite clear Restore don't really care about Scotland** and I would have thought the comments about Dunblane would be the nail in the coffin. If I'm wrong in that judgement let me know!
But there doesn't need to be a figurehead to spread racism and division. Just a massive spamming of social media with socially divisive guff and spicy videos. Plus of course Musk owns Twitter.

**They don't care about England either but it's less blatant

Firetreev · 16/07/2026 17:20

Persephonia1966 · 16/07/2026 17:17

Surely Lowe himself can't be liked by anyone in Scotland? He's made a lot of comments that make it quite clear Restore don't really care about Scotland** and I would have thought the comments about Dunblane would be the nail in the coffin. If I'm wrong in that judgement let me know!
But there doesn't need to be a figurehead to spread racism and division. Just a massive spamming of social media with socially divisive guff and spicy videos. Plus of course Musk owns Twitter.

**They don't care about England either but it's less blatant

I think the far right cretins in Scotland will probably quite like Lowe irregardless. Some of the worst of the far right in Scotland are unionists.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 16/07/2026 17:23

Firetreev · 16/07/2026 16:49

I think a lot of them will actually be being actively watched by the security agencies.

They are.

One of the ringleaders of the hotel-shouting cohort was recently stopped upon his return to Edinburgh airport and quizzed for hours.

This is the concerning part. It's all useful idiots who appear to be "typical members of the local community" fronting it (typical if you look past the string of convictions most of them have, the restraining orders etc), but the organisation and consistency is far and away above anything "facebook" activists can usually maintain.

Persephonia1966 · 16/07/2026 17:25

Firetreev · 16/07/2026 17:20

I think the far right cretins in Scotland will probably quite like Lowe irregardless. Some of the worst of the far right in Scotland are unionists.

I can well believe that there are plenty of far right unionists!
But it's more that he has the same level of disregard Farage has for Northern Ireland (Farage said that he could see Brexit leading to Ireland being united). Lowe isn't an Englishman in favour of the Union. He very much doesn't care, to the extent of saying that migrants should be housed in tents on islands of the Scottish coastline. Not sure that far right Scottish types.would be thrilled to hear that Restore wants to house the evil migrants in Scotland. But who knows really...

LivGo · 16/07/2026 18:09

I sadly think there are deep rooted prejudices in all societies and cultures. Our own understanding of this, and how we encounter it is very much based on our lived experience.

Being Scottish, but having lived in Portugal, Spain, Argentina and Brasil I have seen how they all have deep-rooted problems, which is why some of the very generalised statements on this thread about Argentina annoy me so much. I can't objectively tell you which of the countries above is the best - I have lived experience in all of them - some of those experiences were better than others - but just like every other place, they do all have their problems.

Before leaving Scotland, I had no lived experience of being treated differently for my nationality or skin colour, but I was very aware of sectarianism and coming from a catholic family, had experience of its impact. I should mention my dad is English, so I regularly visited England.

In Portugal, I had my first experience living somewhere where I was a foreigner, and that does inevitably change the way you experience things and how people perceive you - especially when you have to start dealing with the day-to-day realities - bank accounts, residency procedures, finding somewhere to live etc etc. While I didn't have any issues directly, I knew a lot of Brasilians and they often experienced a lot of racism - for example, if I phoned up to enquire about a rental property, I would always get a viewing, but there were occasions where a Brasilian friend would phone up and the landlord would claim the apartment wasn't available - and in fact, on a couple of occasions even admitted they did not rent to Brasilians.

As I have explained, so won't repeat, I experienced a lot of difficulty in Spain, particularly because of what my husband had to deal with. Another example would be the way people from Morocco are treated in Spain. But again, before relocating there, I had no idea of these issues as I had no lived experience of it.

Race is such a complicated topic in Brasil that I can't even begin to explain it, but race is so deep-rooted in the way Brasil is today and is still a strong source of injustice. While on the surface they have strong laws against racism, the problem is deeply structural and my day-to-day experience in Brasil as a white person is completely different to that of my husband. I found it difficult to live in Brasil long-term because of this - there were other factors too, but it was one of them.

Argentina, as I have said, also has problems with racism. Again, completely wrong and it should never be tolerated. A lot of it is to do with ignorance (the average person in Argentina has barely interacted face-to-face with someone from outside of the country), some cultural behaviours are different. In general, I suspect I do get treated better abroad for being Scottish rather than English - I don't think that's right - but it'd be unfair to deny it. Most people in Argentina think Scotland is independent (lots of Brasilians too), and those who know it isn't can't understand why not. That said, if you are English, act like a reasonable person (like the vast majority do) and avoid talking about Las Malvinas, you'll find people from here to be very nice and welcoming people who aren't actually very different to you. Ironically, I think it's the most English of all the places I've lived, but out of context, that'll make no sense.

Of course all societies and nations have deep-rooted problems in addition to those mentioned above e.g. poverty, class, wealth distribution, housing, etc etc. I won't go into my experiences of those individual issues. I have probably been boring enough with this post!

But to go back to the topic: at the end of the day, it's just a football match. Passionately support the team you want like a normal, decent person, and then when it's all over, after a moment to celebrate or commiserate, you move on. I can't get upset about someone supporting an opposing team. What does upset me is when people justify this based on sweeping generalisations, or comments rooted in ignorance, rather than fact or experience.

Persephonia1966 · 16/07/2026 18:18

LivGo · 16/07/2026 18:09

I sadly think there are deep rooted prejudices in all societies and cultures. Our own understanding of this, and how we encounter it is very much based on our lived experience.

Being Scottish, but having lived in Portugal, Spain, Argentina and Brasil I have seen how they all have deep-rooted problems, which is why some of the very generalised statements on this thread about Argentina annoy me so much. I can't objectively tell you which of the countries above is the best - I have lived experience in all of them - some of those experiences were better than others - but just like every other place, they do all have their problems.

Before leaving Scotland, I had no lived experience of being treated differently for my nationality or skin colour, but I was very aware of sectarianism and coming from a catholic family, had experience of its impact. I should mention my dad is English, so I regularly visited England.

In Portugal, I had my first experience living somewhere where I was a foreigner, and that does inevitably change the way you experience things and how people perceive you - especially when you have to start dealing with the day-to-day realities - bank accounts, residency procedures, finding somewhere to live etc etc. While I didn't have any issues directly, I knew a lot of Brasilians and they often experienced a lot of racism - for example, if I phoned up to enquire about a rental property, I would always get a viewing, but there were occasions where a Brasilian friend would phone up and the landlord would claim the apartment wasn't available - and in fact, on a couple of occasions even admitted they did not rent to Brasilians.

As I have explained, so won't repeat, I experienced a lot of difficulty in Spain, particularly because of what my husband had to deal with. Another example would be the way people from Morocco are treated in Spain. But again, before relocating there, I had no idea of these issues as I had no lived experience of it.

Race is such a complicated topic in Brasil that I can't even begin to explain it, but race is so deep-rooted in the way Brasil is today and is still a strong source of injustice. While on the surface they have strong laws against racism, the problem is deeply structural and my day-to-day experience in Brasil as a white person is completely different to that of my husband. I found it difficult to live in Brasil long-term because of this - there were other factors too, but it was one of them.

Argentina, as I have said, also has problems with racism. Again, completely wrong and it should never be tolerated. A lot of it is to do with ignorance (the average person in Argentina has barely interacted face-to-face with someone from outside of the country), some cultural behaviours are different. In general, I suspect I do get treated better abroad for being Scottish rather than English - I don't think that's right - but it'd be unfair to deny it. Most people in Argentina think Scotland is independent (lots of Brasilians too), and those who know it isn't can't understand why not. That said, if you are English, act like a reasonable person (like the vast majority do) and avoid talking about Las Malvinas, you'll find people from here to be very nice and welcoming people who aren't actually very different to you. Ironically, I think it's the most English of all the places I've lived, but out of context, that'll make no sense.

Of course all societies and nations have deep-rooted problems in addition to those mentioned above e.g. poverty, class, wealth distribution, housing, etc etc. I won't go into my experiences of those individual issues. I have probably been boring enough with this post!

But to go back to the topic: at the end of the day, it's just a football match. Passionately support the team you want like a normal, decent person, and then when it's all over, after a moment to celebrate or commiserate, you move on. I can't get upset about someone supporting an opposing team. What does upset me is when people justify this based on sweeping generalisations, or comments rooted in ignorance, rather than fact or experience.

Do you think the people in Spain (the individuals not the Spanish as a whole) who were awful to your husband were racist?

LivGo · 16/07/2026 18:58

Persephonia1966 · 16/07/2026 18:18

Do you think the people in Spain (the individuals not the Spanish as a whole) who were awful to your husband were racist?

Edited

Yes. In truth, I think they were deeply unpleasant people, who were even more unpleasant because they had to live next to two foreigners. They were very unpleasant with us both - but the language they used with him crossed a boundary.

I want to be clear, that could have happened anywhere - Scotland, England etc, but anyone trying to generalise and insinuate that Spain is less racist than Argentina isn't, based on my experience, correct. I certainly don't think it's a valid reason to support one team over the other, or suggest one is somehow better than the other.

Supporting Spain because you've been there on holiday or like rioja more than malbec would be more legitimate reasons, in my view.

Persephonia1966 · 16/07/2026 19:18

LivGo · 16/07/2026 18:58

Yes. In truth, I think they were deeply unpleasant people, who were even more unpleasant because they had to live next to two foreigners. They were very unpleasant with us both - but the language they used with him crossed a boundary.

I want to be clear, that could have happened anywhere - Scotland, England etc, but anyone trying to generalise and insinuate that Spain is less racist than Argentina isn't, based on my experience, correct. I certainly don't think it's a valid reason to support one team over the other, or suggest one is somehow better than the other.

Supporting Spain because you've been there on holiday or like rioja more than malbec would be more legitimate reasons, in my view.

Edited

Right

But then can you also agree that when an Argentinian football player uses racist language or says very offensive things he is also being racist? It doesn't automatically mean that everyone who supports the team is racist necessarily. But there seems to be a complete denial from some people that they were/are racist, and I think it's maybe because they are football players and given greater leeway. I think the people who say they are supporting Spain because "the Argentinian team are racist" are talking about the Argentinian team members who like your neighbours said racist things rather than saying all Argentinians are racist. It's the opposite of generalising really.

LivGo · 16/07/2026 19:49

Persephonia1966 · 16/07/2026 19:18

Right

But then can you also agree that when an Argentinian football player uses racist language or says very offensive things he is also being racist? It doesn't automatically mean that everyone who supports the team is racist necessarily. But there seems to be a complete denial from some people that they were/are racist, and I think it's maybe because they are football players and given greater leeway. I think the people who say they are supporting Spain because "the Argentinian team are racist" are talking about the Argentinian team members who like your neighbours said racist things rather than saying all Argentinians are racist. It's the opposite of generalising really.

To be honest, if you're supporting a team solely based on the fact you prefer the individual players who comprise that team, I can't really argue with that.

But unless you have the time to deep dive into the history of every individual player, their entire history, all of the controversial things they may or may not have done etc etc, it seems like it'd be a lot of work for something that isn't really that important.

I'd understand more if you supported an English football club and one of their star players was representing their national team (in this case Spain), so you decided to lend them your support for the night.

I honestly know nothing about the Spanish team and whether or not any of their players play for any English clubs. As I say, I'm not really into football. It was only after being in Argentina during the last world cup that I got into it a bit.

JHound · 16/07/2026 22:15

LivGo · 16/07/2026 15:26

I genuinely don't care (and I don't mean that in a rude or dismissive way) who you support on Sunday.

I hope you have a great day, maybe cook some tapas, and have fun. It's a football match. I am going to be drinking malbec, probably having some empanadas and enjoying the atmosphere.

I am just trying to make the point that people are making very strong assertations about Argentina and these aren't rooted in reality, or my lived experience - having spent extensive time in both countries.

Both have their problems, and as I have said and neither should feel superior to the other. All I can say is after the racist abuse I had to live next to in Spain, as well as a number of other issues as an immigrant, living in Argentina has been a dream in comparison.

Argentina’s eurocentric white supremacist racism is not going to be targetted at you though is it. So of course you have no issue with it.

JHound · 16/07/2026 22:18

Persephonia1966 · 16/07/2026 13:51

Ironically that sort of is the situation Hong Kong finds themselves in (although without the same voting rights or protesting rights)
Or m, more aptly, the situation that people in the Falklands Islands would be in if they were given to Argentina. Which some people on this thread said they want presumably because it would piss of the English. Despite the Falklands Islanders not being English specifically.

The difference is, that China wouldn't allow a referendum on whether Hong Kongers want to be part of China. the Falklands Islands did have a referendum and voted 98% to remain a British protectorate. The Scottish Parliament voted for the Act of Union in 1707, and later in the 2014 referendum the Scottish people voted to stay part of the Union by 55%. Which is a much smaller majority than the Falklands but is a majority nonetheless.

So it's fine to want independence, but people using that as an excuse to want other people to lose their independence against their will,.and as a reason to support the country openly wanting to do that (not talking about football), kind of looks hypocritical, and is a perfect example of the independence campaign turning into something unpleasant and petty.

That’s not comparable. The Falklands were British before Argentina existed. Hong Kong was China but Britain “won” it as a territory after the Opium Wars (which were triggered by the British basically becoming the Escobar of China and flooding China with class A drugs against the Chinese government’s wishes.

I don’t know how you put them in the same category.

lovecotswoldsliving · 16/07/2026 22:19

JHound · 16/07/2026 22:15

Argentina’s eurocentric white supremacist racism is not going to be targetted at you though is it. So of course you have no issue with it.

Nasty, dirty cheats.
i am not watching.

JHound · 16/07/2026 22:26

LivGo · 16/07/2026 14:37

This is such an ignorant comment.

I now live in Argentina, but before that I lived in Spain for eight years. If you think racism isn't a problem there, or sexual violence is not an issue, you are very wrong. Just google Íñigo Errejón.

We ended up leaving Spain after living next to a neighbour who shouted racist abuse at my husband (who is a Brasilian). It was two years of absolute hell, and the police had no interest in taking any serious action. Day-to-day racism and negative treatment for being foreign was far more of an issue for us in Spain than it has been since we moved to Argentina.

I really wish people would stop making comments without (presumably, I apologise if I am wrong) having any lived experience of what they are saying.

It’s not an ignorant comment it’s factual. Argentina has a racism stretching back to when they deliberately eradicated their black population (which they are proud of) and enacted their policy of “Blanquemiento”.

And it continues to this day - one example being the continued racist jibes aimed at the French football team.

Of course you don’t care because it does not impact you and is not aimed at you.

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2026-07-15/world-cup-argentina-hate

https://www.theguardian.com/football/article/2024/jul/16/fff-legal-complaint-racist-argentina-chants-copa-america

www.theguardian.com/world/2026/may/28/argentina-european-self-image-racist-incidents-brazi

KANSAS CITY, MISSOURI - JUNE 16: Lionel Messi #10 of Argentina celebrates.

Why so many Latin Americans are rooting against Argentina in the World Cup

The World Cup is spurring anti-Argentina sentiment.

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2026-07-15/world-cup-argentina-hate

JHound · 16/07/2026 22:35

LivGo · 16/07/2026 14:37

This is such an ignorant comment.

I now live in Argentina, but before that I lived in Spain for eight years. If you think racism isn't a problem there, or sexual violence is not an issue, you are very wrong. Just google Íñigo Errejón.

We ended up leaving Spain after living next to a neighbour who shouted racist abuse at my husband (who is a Brasilian). It was two years of absolute hell, and the police had no interest in taking any serious action. Day-to-day racism and negative treatment for being foreign was far more of an issue for us in Spain than it has been since we moved to Argentina.

I really wish people would stop making comments without (presumably, I apologise if I am wrong) having any lived experience of what they are saying.

Also when I say Argentina has a rapist mentality I mean that it refuses to accept the Falkland Islander’s “no”.

JHound · 16/07/2026 22:40

Persephonia1966 · 16/07/2026 14:49

There's racists everywhere, including the UK. However the actual Argentinian football team themselves seem to be very openly racist in some cases (Fernandez) and almost celebrating their ability to do so. Likewise, while many countries have issues with racist fans, the Argentinian fans have stood out as particularly bad. Possibly because the vibe on the whole during the world cup was quite positive. The UK had huge issues with racism but there was a move to kick racism out of football, clubs with fans that make racist chants are usually punished. England had a terrible reputation for football hooliganism during the 80s and worked really hard to turn that around. You can see from comments on here that some people still remember it.

So if course, if the actual Argentinian players are singing offensive songs about black French players, or if the fans are making monkey noises at black people with 0 pushback, the impression that people who don't know anything about Argentina will be that Argentinians are kind of OK with racism. And because it's the actual team doing it, it does sort of make sense to hold it against the team.

Lie down with dogs, wake up with fleas.

This. If it was just the fans…well racist fans are everywhere as you day. But in Argentina it’s the team, politicians supporting the team etc.

Persephonia1966 · 16/07/2026 22:43

JHound · 16/07/2026 22:18

That’s not comparable. The Falklands were British before Argentina existed. Hong Kong was China but Britain “won” it as a territory after the Opium Wars (which were triggered by the British basically becoming the Escobar of China and flooding China with class A drugs against the Chinese government’s wishes.

I don’t know how you put them in the same category.

They aren't in the same category in that sense. Form what it's worth I think it was right we gave them back. It was a classic case of gun boat diplomacy in the first place. However, I can agree that the UK had no right to own them and at the same time have sympathy for the people living there who don't really want to be British, but do want more democratic rights than are afforded them by the Chinese government (despite the promises made prior to handover). I was more pointing out that the comparison to the UK being "ruled" by China isn't really applicable.and also that it's sort of hypocritical to support the Falklanders having their own sovereignty handed over to Argentina against their own choice, while comparing the Scottish-English Union to Britain being forcefully ruled by China. But probably talking about Hong Kong muddied the issue so sorry.

I think you can be against colonialism and pro-democracy/self determination as a general principle. It doesn't help that "democracy" has generally been used as an excuse to invade places but that's not what I meant.