India – loved it, but I came back feeling so violated.

[LondonLass40]

Just back from the Golden Triangle with my husband (43) and 12yr daughter. Stunning forts, incredible food ( lucky no Delhi belly 😀) amazing history is genuinely breathtaking.

But I’m struggling to process the darker side.

One afternoon in Delhi, my husband stayed at the hotel. I took my daughter to a busy market near cannaught place in broad daylight, crowded. A man walked past and grabbed my breast. Right in front of my daughter. He just kept walking. I froze. My poor girl kept asking why he touched Mummy.

Then there was the constant selfie nonsense when my husband was there and men lining up, putting their arms around me, getting too close while my husband stood there awkwardly not knowing what to do.

And the worst part was at the Red Fort queue. This guy kept pushing into me from behind – clearly not an accident. I turned around and shouted at him. He didn't run, didn't even look embarrassed , he just walked away ignoring me like I was invisible. I spoke to a security guard who just pretend to do something and did absolutely nothing.

I know these issues aren't isolated to India and this could happen in London too. But this was so blatant, so frequent, so relentless that I simply cannot ignore it. I've been to so many tourist destinations around the world and have never experienced harassment on this scale. It felt inescapable.

I don't know – does this only happen to Western women? I'm sure men like this do the same to Indian women too. How on earth do they deal with this every single day? I honestly don't think I'd go back.

Except they will coat the uk tax payers thousands /millions instead. These scum bags need to be deported.

Absolutely horrific. That grinning image was just awful.

Yet there are a big "refugees are welcome here" crowd on MN

Looking into Viola's case I was also shocked that so many countries had this kind of law absolving rapists who marry their victims until recently.
France until 1994, Greece until 2018, Portugal until 1982, Peru until 1999, Argentina until 2012, Brazil until 2005, , Bulgaria until 2015, Chile until 1999, Colombia until 1997, Costa Rica until 2007, Denmark until 2013, Ecuador until 2014, Dominican Republic , El Salvador until 2017, Guatemala until 2006, Mexico until 1991 (but in 2017, the laws of three states provide that marriage to the victim exonerates the perpetrator of the crime of 'seduction of minors'), Nicaragua until 2008, Panama until 2008, Venezuela until 2015, Uruguay until 2006.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marry-your-rapist_law

Obviously in a lot of these cases they may not have been used for a long time but it's so disturbing they existed at all.
And some still have it that I hadn't expected: Philippines, Thailand (for statutory rape), Russia (for cases of statutory rape).

Aside from the State of Emergency under Indira Gandhi...overall I agree with you though.

I'm not certain female leaders necessarily correlate with progress for women overall. Bangladesh and Pakistan as you said, also Sri Lanka have had them, but also Brazil (Dilma Rousseff), Mexico (Claudia Sheinbaum). Malawi, Mozambique, Congo, Liberia, Tanzania, Namibia, Ethiopia, Gabon, Uganda, Burundi, Senegal have all had female PMs and or presidents. This doesn't necessarily correlate with women on the ground having a better position in those countries.

Yes aside from that. It was technically allowed under the constitution, and then after the 2 years she lost the election.

I'm wondering if both India and Egypt (and also other countries) have such high sexual assault rates partly due to widespread low IQ.
It's well known that early childhood nutrition, disease & other environmental factors can reduce IQ. In Egypt around a third of marriages are between 1st cousins, which also lowers IQ. Obviously low IQ is no excuse for these terrible crimes but it may be one factor, as it lowers impulse control and thus makes impulsive violence more likely.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&rct=j&url=www.psypost.org/people-who-engage-in-impulsive-violence-tend-to-have-lower-iq-scores/&ved=2ahUKEwjll96ustWVAxWQXkEAHXMgHVkQ_r4PegoIAggACAAIDhBG&opi=89978449&cd&psig=AOvVaw2wQje22UwUQOewgBy5vx6F&ust=1784229334790000

Interesting point. I do think it's mostly down to culture.

The British Hindu/Indian community in the UK tends to be very well educated and often significantly outscores the white British on GCSEs and A-levels.

There's a difference between the educated and the uneducated (which actually brings back to your IQ point).

Surely if you are so terrified you have fled your country you would be,I don’t know, grateful to the country that has taken you in? Remember reading about Jewish refugees in WW2 who were so appreciative of being saved and sought to repay England by making it a better place. What on earth is going on here?

Yes maybe it is not nationality at all but the demographic that are coming here. One of those rapists was already a murderer in Egypt. We seem to be getting the worst from the other countries rather than their decent citizens.

I did a thread about this a while back. Low IQ might explain part of it. Evil people but also maybe genuinely do not understand rape is a crime here/cannot control their impulses to commit violent crime.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/amibeingunreasonable/5537693-to-wonder-why-so-many-male-migrants-have-committed-sexual-assaultseven-if-they-are-evil-people-wouldnt-staying-in-the-uk-be-an-incentive-to-abide-by-the-law

Lots of Jewish refugees became an asset to their country as did their children. A minority didn't - eg Robert Maxwell and his child, the Epstein's son, Lex Werner. They were a tiny minority of the vast majority and I would be very uncomfortable to single them out as an example of "bad immigrants". It's only probable that out of a lot of people some would be involved in dodgy stuff. But by the same measure, I don't think it's fair...

2018!!!

Russia doesn't suprise me that much. They have, in general, a very high rate of.gender based violence and a very machismo driven politics that tends to idolise "strong men".
https://www.yacnews.com/russias-family-values-raping-beating-women-girls-to-death/
"In 2016, the Church said the criminalisation of family battery constituted an "assault on the Holy Scriptures." According to reporting by the independent outlet Verstka, in 2023 the Kremlin gave the Church assurances that a domestic violence bill would not be adopted.
In 2017, in a speech defending her decriminalisation bill, Mizulina said that criminal responsibility in domestic cases constituted illegitimate state interference in family life, and attributed the domestic violence problem to domestic NGOs seeking foreign funding, part of what she characterised as a Western assault on Russian values and sovereignty."

It's not the religion that's the problem. It's the men (and their handmaidens) interpreting it for their own ends.

I found an Instagram channel run by a young Russian woman and she made it seem that the streets of Moscow are super safe at night, especially for women. Was she just BSing it? Do we know about stranger attacks on women in Russia?

Stranger attacks upset me a lot.

Moscow's quite different to the rest of Russia to be fair. But I would say, when I was last there**, it felt reasonably safe. But then that's some areas. Stranger attacks upset me a lot as well but (and I was discussing this in the context of Dubai etc earlier on) the idea that there can be all this sex trafficking, sexual exploitation, rape and violence going on within relationships but that doesn't matter so long as on the surface it feels "safe" doesn't sit right with me. It's a bit "I'm alright Jack".
Russia love to portray themselves as a bastion of Western/Christian values and argue that this conservativism makes women safer than in the decadent West. But then so do hard-line Muslim conservatives. And the hardline Hindu nationalists in places like India, which is how this thread started. I am sure that they make some women "safer" from stranger attacks but the cost is other women are deemed unworthy of protection. And even the women deemed worthy of protecting from strangers are fair game for their husbands and families.

**A long long time ago. I wouldn't go there as a foreigner now because you'd run the risk of getting arrested as a spy. Which is a different kind of risk.

Also, to add to this. I guess if you are marrying the man who raped you then he isn't a stranger anymore. So in that sense problem solved?

There's a difference between the educated and the uneducated (which actually brings back to your IQ point).'

• yes, that definitely. IQ in India varies a lot based on area.

Traditionally, as with some other diasporas, Indian Hindu and I think Sikh migrants to UK have come from better educated communities, I think? Gujaratis arriving here, for one, have tended to be better-educated. There's also the factor that many came when Idi Amin persecuted them, so they had already been working in middleman roles in East Africa.

In contrast, much - though not all- of the British Pakistani and Bangladeshi community has come from poorer and less educated rural backgrounds.

Stranger attacks are really scary. But it's worth noting that most rape in the UK is by someone known to the victim, not a stranger.

Russia may well be safe for women (and men) at night in terms of street-based crime but that doesn't negate high rates of DV against women committed by men known to them and, as Persephonia said, sanctioned by at least some authorities. Putin has weakened laws tackling DV.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/07/putin-approves-change-to-law-decriminalising-domestic-violence
China is another example where streets are quite safe for everyone but women suffer DV behind closed doors, especially in rural areas. Both Russia & China have traditional proverbs to the effect that beating shows love.

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2016/08/05/if-he-beats-you-it-means-he-loves-you-a54866

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/the-feed/article/beating-is-love-how-cultural-messages-can-make-women-feel-trapped-in-abusive-relationships/fyab0xzcm

Good point: And the hardline Hindu nationalists in places like India, which is how this thread started. I am sure that they make some women "safer" from stranger attacks but the cost is other women are deemed unworthy of protection. And even the women deemed worthy of protecting from strangers are fair game'

That's the thing. In India women have often born the brunt of caste & religious prejudice as assaulting a man's female relative is a way of attacking the group as a whole. So Hindu men may assault Muslim women, Muslim men assault Hindu women, and other groups are endangered too.

It's worth noting most rapes in India are also by someone known to the victim.

https://www.reuters.com/article/world/india/almost-90-percent-of-indias-rapes-committed-by-people-known-to-victim-idUSKCN0QQ0QR/

It's also worth noting that Russian SM accounts, like Chinese, may be serving a propaganda purpose, although of course many are not.

My thoughts exactly! And then went on to say "Not that it should matter..." as if that somehow made their question ok !! How about not asking that offensive victim-blaming question in the first place!!! We still have SUCH a long way to go. 🙄🤬

I would say this is a huge issue. It's the same in Canada where I live. Previously, most immigration Besides refugees was fairly well educated, urban people. They integrated well, and maybe this created a sense for some that everyone from those countries was similar.

Now the people coming are totally different groups, and they don't integrate particularly well, and bring problems like sectarian violence and caste and other ethnic preferences.

This is simple.

She did not think what a person wears means they should be assaulted.

But she wondered if the person who did the assaulting thought it did.

And this is simple - posing that question, for whatever reason, perpetuates its use as an excuse or as a legal defense. Just don't.