India – loved it, but I came back feeling so violated.

[LondonLass40]

Just back from the Golden Triangle with my husband (43) and 12yr daughter. Stunning forts, incredible food ( lucky no Delhi belly 😀) amazing history is genuinely breathtaking.

But I’m struggling to process the darker side.

One afternoon in Delhi, my husband stayed at the hotel. I took my daughter to a busy market near cannaught place in broad daylight, crowded. A man walked past and grabbed my breast. Right in front of my daughter. He just kept walking. I froze. My poor girl kept asking why he touched Mummy.

Then there was the constant selfie nonsense when my husband was there and men lining up, putting their arms around me, getting too close while my husband stood there awkwardly not knowing what to do.

And the worst part was at the Red Fort queue. This guy kept pushing into me from behind – clearly not an accident. I turned around and shouted at him. He didn't run, didn't even look embarrassed , he just walked away ignoring me like I was invisible. I spoke to a security guard who just pretend to do something and did absolutely nothing.

I know these issues aren't isolated to India and this could happen in London too. But this was so blatant, so frequent, so relentless that I simply cannot ignore it. I've been to so many tourist destinations around the world and have never experienced harassment on this scale. It felt inescapable.

I don't know – does this only happen to Western women? I'm sure men like this do the same to Indian women too. How on earth do they deal with this every single day? I honestly don't think I'd go back.

I don’t get the question. Why wouldn’t the daughter ask that?

Must have SEN to be this naive.

I'm no expert but Wikipedia says Egypt is definitely part of the Middle East...

Middle East - Wikipedia

Not necessary.

But they weren't though. Why are you defending these thugs?

I found Turkey like this . Would never ever ever go back . Groped and touched several times on that holiday . I recommend Sri Lanka . Similar to India in culture but I felt safe there .

Why the stark difference between Greece and Turkey in women's safety?

I think it's because France doesn't have such an embedded football culture as say Italy, France, Spain, England etc. So their national team only started to get going when immigrants came into the country, starting with Poles, Italians, then people from the former colonies. It's a different history.

What I meant was France doesn't have such an embedded football culture as Italy, Spain, England etc, so football in France is played more by communities who have arrived since the 50s.

Why do they want photos taken with women they don’t know anyway? What’s that about?

They've not seen a white woman before in real life

It's not particularly bold when it's true and accurate. Anyone can call themselves a Christian, but one is only a Christian when one is born-again of the Spirit of God, which is not Roman Catholicism.

'It also isn't fair if that's what Eastern Europe is known for, and the stereotype of the "sexy Eastern-European woman" has a darker side which comes from that I think. Living in Amsterdam for a while, the behaviour of certain tourism groups (including British people) and the turning a blind eye by the locals was quite sinister. Amsterdam's very safe for women and liberal. But behind the scenes there are sex trafficked women and men including British born and raised men who have no qualms about taking advantage of that in the same way men in India will happily "take advantage" of foreign women on their own.'

• yes, as someone who's partly Polish it is frustrating to see the way Eastern European were often stereotyped or worse abused as mail order brides, sex workers etc. As you say it's still a problem in some places.

I definitely agree also re men going abroad to abuse trafficked women. I was doing some research recently into the 1980s-2000s period when Bangkok was an epicentre of sex tourism (which thankfully has changed somewhat) and it was disturbing to see the ways men on forums like Pistonheads or expat blogs justified using women who if not trafficked were very likely under severe economic pressure. Lots of spurious 'it's their culture'(funny it always seems to be the poorest women in Thailand doing this!), 'they always seem happy to see us' etc.

I've seen some comments about Melania Trump online which feel a bit similar to that too. Men saying she's proof that young attractive women care about status & wealth not age/looks (ignoring that most wealthy men actually have wives quite close in age, Trump isn't typical). If Melania had been born in a different period it's possible she would have chosen options other than modelling and never ended up in Trump's orbit. Of course she might still have, but it's not coincidental that Eastern European women flooded into modelling industry after the collapse of the USSR.

It’s Africa I would have thought.

I am sure I said ages ago I have no interest in your racism. Go away.

Yes

Sometimes there's an element of
"This group of men think it's acceptable to maltreat these women. They are animals..out men are better because they only maltreat the women that it's ok to maltreat"

I don't think all places are equally as bad. But there is sometimes a false sense of security "we are not like that" that is a problem if it stops people seeing or doing anything about issues in their countries. Unfortunately, I think that there is a minority of men who want to have sex with women more than they care about consent. So it's kind of convenient for everyone to pretend that some women/girls don't count or just not see often quite horrific sexual coercion when it's right there.

This is absolutely batshit crazy.

https://www.ebsco.com/research-starters/religion-and-philosophy/catholicism

Catholicism, primarily represented by Roman Catholicism, is the largest denomination within Christianity, with over 1.37 billion adherents as of 2022. It traces its origins to Jesus Christ and the Apostles, maintaining a continuous history rooted in the teachings and leadership of the Apostle Peter, whom Catholics consider the first pope

Microagressions aren’t nothing.

They’re like mosquito bites. The odd few are annoying but you get over it.

Loads of them and it really starts to be a problem.

Of course you can hold that point of view, but you must realise it's not very mainstream within Protestantism. Most Protestant churches accept some form of ecumenicism.

I don’t think anybody knows how white France is because the capture of race based statistics is illegal.

I do agree though that it raises a question about the intersection of class and race in France given how many of the French football team is pulled from the banlieues and poor neighbourhoods of Paris and Marseille.

I was as I wanted to avoid derailing.

But had not realised others weren’t so joined back in.

If that’s ok with you.

Do you mean the 2012 Jyoti Singh case? That was unbelievably awful. There were moves to try to improve things but I'm not sure how much they have improved since.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Delhi_gang_rape_and_murder&ved=2ahUKEwilwLjOkdOVAxXVT0EAHYyGGS0QFnoECHkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2fd1PXmN2GSE3AfiXNSxE_

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-63817388

Or do you mean another case?

One thing India does have since then is the death penalty for rape. I'm anti death penalty but given the situation I wonder if maybe it's the right choice at least while it's so bad.

Oooh this is interesting.

Yes, I mean by this logic there was no Christianity for the long period between Jesus and the Reformation!

Do you mean Jyoti Singh in 2012? Her case was terrible. There hasn't been much progress since though women (and some men) are speaking out & the death penalty has been introduced for rapists.