India – loved it, but I came back feeling so violated.

[LondonLass40]

Just back from the Golden Triangle with my husband (43) and 12yr daughter. Stunning forts, incredible food ( lucky no Delhi belly 😀) amazing history is genuinely breathtaking.

But I’m struggling to process the darker side.

One afternoon in Delhi, my husband stayed at the hotel. I took my daughter to a busy market near cannaught place in broad daylight, crowded. A man walked past and grabbed my breast. Right in front of my daughter. He just kept walking. I froze. My poor girl kept asking why he touched Mummy.

Then there was the constant selfie nonsense when my husband was there and men lining up, putting their arms around me, getting too close while my husband stood there awkwardly not knowing what to do.

And the worst part was at the Red Fort queue. This guy kept pushing into me from behind – clearly not an accident. I turned around and shouted at him. He didn't run, didn't even look embarrassed , he just walked away ignoring me like I was invisible. I spoke to a security guard who just pretend to do something and did absolutely nothing.

I know these issues aren't isolated to India and this could happen in London too. But this was so blatant, so frequent, so relentless that I simply cannot ignore it. I've been to so many tourist destinations around the world and have never experienced harassment on this scale. It felt inescapable.

I don't know – does this only happen to Western women? I'm sure men like this do the same to Indian women too. How on earth do they deal with this every single day? I honestly don't think I'd go back.

It’s not always easy. My DH has lived in my country for 30 years, so more than half his life. When we go abroad and people ask where he is from (English is his first language) he now says the country he lives in (we live in) and people are always confused. Where do you draw the line saying which country you are actually from..

I had to travel to India for work - they literally provided me with a security guard. He walked me door to door the entire trip. The only time he left me alone was in the hotel - it was a 5 star American branded hotel so security was incredible there.

However - I must say - the entire time I was there, I didnt so much as notice a creepy leer in my direction. The men (and women) couldn't do enough for me.

Maybe it was because we were constantly in 5 star places and they knew their tip would be cut if they acted inappropriately.

Your post has made me realise why they put on the security - just because I didnt see it - doesnt mean its not there.

On the flip side, Haaland was born in the UK as his father was playing football there but went back to Norway after only three years so in addition to having Norwegian parents he was raised and spent the bulk of his childhood in Norway. Hence it makes sense he chose to play for Norway.

Its entirely possible, if his father had stayed for longer in England and he'd grown up here he might have chosen differently (although maybe not. I guess there was also his father's legacy to uphold). But if he had would people really be saying that even though he was born and brought up in England he would always be Nordic and never English? Ah, what might have been. But having Haaland and Bellingham on the England squad would have been awesome.

my opinion hasn’t been formed without firsthand experience.

• interesting. Can I ask what countries they are from- Serbia is one? And do you feel they raised you according to their countries' norms, not British ones? Or a mix of both?

My grandfather was from Poland but my grandmother was English and I don't think my mother was raised according to non-British norms (maybe it would have been different if her mother had been the Polish one). Otoh she has friends (like the godmother I mentioned earlier) who were raised by 2 Polish parents (a lot of WW2 refugees came to our area) and they mainly live by British norms rather than other ones.

It's an interesting question. I think it's mainly about integration. The French team can be seen as French because they are integrated into French culture as well as being born in France.

Although I think it's concerning that although France is 78% white, almost all of their team are black or Arab. That shows that people of different ethnicities in France are doing different things which is not good for integration. Other European teams have a better mix.

Honestly - this is massively off topic but the level of racism and questioning of their identity the French team has received is part of the reason I would love for them to lift the WC trophy (well, only if we can’t!)

The Paraguayan senator, past comments from the Argentina team (and as you mention it’s really weird for settler states to be coming out with that) and then the recent comments by the Spanish former president have all been diabolical. It’s a weird way of “othering” people based on melanin levels while whining that people don’t integrate / assimilate.

Anyway just wanted to respond but will get back on topic now!

Yes, I mean I think a lot of the time people sometimes put too much weight on one element (who your parents are). That matters a lot. But so does your area, your school, your friends etc. A child with immigrant parents growing up with a lot of British friends and schoolmates is having a very different experience to a child in a hypothetical area where they only go to school with children of the same immigrant background and only mix with friends of the same immigrant background (I'm not saying this exact situation happens but to some level it sometimes does)

Parents may have a different cultural background but still encourage integration. Stuff like for instance, bilingualism doesn't preclude that. Obviously in some cases parents do hold back integration but plenty of times they don't.

I want to visit Morocco but wavering. So many women I know travelled solo had awful experiences but then another friend of mine has never had any issues. May consider it in a group.

That shows that people of different ethnicities in France are doing different things which is not good for integration. Other European teams have a better mix.

• I don't know much about football but that does sound worrying if that's the case.

Yes it would!

I’m not offended on your behalf.

You don’t need to make up random things. And I don’t know why you keep mentioning you’re an immigrant. I don’t care where you were born or where you moved to.

We disagree that othering people on the basis of skin tone is racist.

That’s fine. We don’t have to agree.

I think it shows that France does have a problem with integration, even though their football teams are awesome and they have won loads.

It's largely a Western phenomenon to give someone citizenship and then view them as somehow as much from/of that country as the natives, though.

• what about people born in that country but with parents from another country?

Case by case depending on integration, to my mind.

It’s definitely not a Western phenomenon. Plenty of westeners make belonging based on socially constructed racial categories. Even in settler states. Bizarrely.

But even if it were a western phenomenon? So? I am not convinced othering people based on skin tone is a good thing.

Does this mean white French people (or men rather, as this is men's football) don't really play football much? Or not at a high level? If so, why?

I thought you were done discussing this?

Both. But that PP started on nationality and then evolved to ethnicity neither of which can be discerned by skin colour.

Or it could be that, while football is obviously popular throughout France, it's most popular (or most viewed as a dream career) in certain parts of France such as Marseilles or in cities rather than rural areas. Or that the facilities/clubs to scout and bring on promising talent are located more in urban areas than rural areas. And that because urban areas have a higher concentration of ethnic minorities than rural areas this skews the statistics. Even if you don't have a deliberate policy, the fact that some of the greatest footballers (eg Eric Cantona) came from Marseille could have an inspirational effect on younger children in that city of all races, so a pattern develops that children from those areas are more likely to go on to be footballers. I can't find any statistics on whereabouts in France French footballers were born/grew up though. It's just supposition on my part that it might be because French football is heavily linked to regional identity, rather than an ethnic integration thing.

It’s a great film. Of course not Hollywood level but very interesting. And because the film is Malaian you avoid the White Saviour nonsense and get a more nuanced look at the problem of FGM but also some insight into why it persists (even among women pushing it on their daughters).

It was very low budget though. Think I got it from the library or Love Film back when Love Film was a thing.

It really isn't only a Western thing anyway. Plenty of places in Asia etc which have a very wide range of ethnicities and policies that completely separate nationality from ethnicity.

I was also thinking if by this argument icons of French culture like Charles Aznavour, Isabelle Adjani and Yves Montand are 'not French'. None had French parents : Aznavour's were Armenian refugees, Adjani is German-Arab Algerian, and Montand's were Italian.

Which is my issue as there is inconsistency based on skin tone.

If the criminals who robbed her parents had been white that PP would never have questioned their Frenchness.

I want England to win. But if not England than France is my second choice.
The racism has been awful but enlightening. I suspect it's so pronounced because the French team are so good. Paraguay are salty because they lost, and Argentina and Spain fear losing to them. That's not an excuse BTW. But I think it shows a certain insecurity.

Yes, I can see that football is concentrated in urban areas. That's also true in England where the strongholds of football are Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, Newcastle, London etc. But our team isn't 99% ethnic minority.

Obviously as the French team are very successful and have won many trophies, I'm sure the French aren't particularly worried about it. But it's an interesting quirk I think.

Thank you, that definitely sounds worth watching. With FGM, as with some other abuses against women, I had read about women inflicting it on their daughters and I'd like to find out more about why.