India – loved it, but I came back feeling so violated.

[LondonLass40]

Just back from the Golden Triangle with my husband (43) and 12yr daughter. Stunning forts, incredible food ( lucky no Delhi belly 😀) amazing history is genuinely breathtaking.

But I’m struggling to process the darker side.

One afternoon in Delhi, my husband stayed at the hotel. I took my daughter to a busy market near cannaught place in broad daylight, crowded. A man walked past and grabbed my breast. Right in front of my daughter. He just kept walking. I froze. My poor girl kept asking why he touched Mummy.

Then there was the constant selfie nonsense when my husband was there and men lining up, putting their arms around me, getting too close while my husband stood there awkwardly not knowing what to do.

And the worst part was at the Red Fort queue. This guy kept pushing into me from behind – clearly not an accident. I turned around and shouted at him. He didn't run, didn't even look embarrassed , he just walked away ignoring me like I was invisible. I spoke to a security guard who just pretend to do something and did absolutely nothing.

I know these issues aren't isolated to India and this could happen in London too. But this was so blatant, so frequent, so relentless that I simply cannot ignore it. I've been to so many tourist destinations around the world and have never experienced harassment on this scale. It felt inescapable.

I don't know – does this only happen to Western women? I'm sure men like this do the same to Indian women too. How on earth do they deal with this every single day? I honestly don't think I'd go back.

Yes, probably to do with time as well. South America was colonised by the Spanish and Portuguese 500 hundred years ago. The indigenous people were wiped out in large numbers but many have have assimilated and indigenous culture is still strong.

I’ve been to Morocco twice, once in the 90s, once in 2024,

I didn’t experience this either time but count myself very lucky as there was always the feeling that it could happen.

I find this very interesting. A friend of mine (Irish male) has a wife from a certain African country. Her origins are from a neighbouring African country. He said people they meet can see this in her features. He said that he cannot.

Unfortunately, they seem to discriminate against her because of this. Tardiness, unwillingness to help, and computer says no, from officialdom. So, real prejudice, I suppose.

Can't say I'm with the "micro aggression" stuff. Call me old-school, but it's not like groping or being spat at on the street or being punched. A few hurty words is nothing.

It's the immigrants on this thread, including at least one actual Indian, that are the ones pointing out the obvious differences between cultures, and saying it's perfectly ok to do so!

Yes, it's quite a complex thing. A lot of it is to do with integration.

Do you mean nationality rather than ethnicity?

The modern nation state is about citizenship. Well in the west anyway. Ethnicity is about origins, I think. So, you can usually tell if someone has Asian, European, or African origins from appearance for example. Skin colour can certainly be a part of that. Of course, when people have a variety of ethnic origins, the recessive can be masked by a dominant phenotype. So, still there, but maybe not quite obvious.

Nationality in western countries is not dependent on skin colour, to be fair. Some other countries have processes that are so regulated, and so discretionary, it is very difficult for an outsider to become a citizen. Rather a FO if you don’t share their heritage/ethnicity.

There is no way in hell a white person born in the Middle East to British parents would be considered an Arab.

Why do you think that is?

I’m Scandinavian and can also very often spot where in Scandinavia/Europe someone comes from.

My DH who has worked all over the world for about 30 years is an expert in guessing exactly where people are from, or sometimes even which regions.

Speaking of Middle East I have never ever come across any harassment. North Africa, yes, and many other countries. I have had problems with Indian people in Dubai though. Just pushing and generally being way too close and I hate it.

Honestly, and this I do stress is my experience, a lot of the the hyper awareness of each and every type of thing that could be considered problematic if you look at it upside down, from the left, and through a squint, is from
non immigrants wanting to be offended on our behalf.

The same type people of person that likes to co-opt us as allies for whatever their wider cause is, with no thought to us as individuals with our own agency. The same type that, when you disagree with them, will tell you you’re stupid, brainwashed, and uninformed; and that they are in fact better qualified to speak for on behalf of your immigrant self than you are. It’s at that point that you realize that this type are all about their own egos.

Tbh I prefer an out and out xenophobe, because they at least don’t pretend to be my friend.

That's rather a bold statement, that Catholicism is 'not Christianity'!

By your logic, then, 50% of the world's Christians are 'not Christian'.

What about Orthodox Christians? Are they also 'not Christian' in your view?

Did your little sister grow up in the ME also?

my own take on this is that such women, deep down, wish the UK was overtaken by men from cultures (not race) who treat women like shit.

• why would they want that?

a husband finds his wife sexually attractive and makes it known

• what do you mean?

Yes, that's right.

This, definitely. I would be interested in watching that film.

But the majority of European heritage people in Argentinia came across in the 20th Century especially during a wave of migration in the 1950s and 1960s and later. Much like many of the players in the English or French squad have grandparents who came to the UK in the same time period. Indigenous culture is much less strong in Argentina than other South American countries anyway. Tango came from black slaves originally and is now part of Argentinian cultural identity. Which is fine, but it's then a bit rich to claim that black men in France are incapable of taking on French culture/identity/nationality. Again,.double standards.

(Besides which, and not to get too far of topic, the Falklands islands were settled a long long time before Messi's great grandparents came to Argentina. Yet, many in Argentina, consider this an occupation still. Therefore, even the few Argentinians (not Messi) who can also trace their ancestry all the way back to the Spanish arrivals 500 years ago, arent Argentinian.

@Jane379 Sorry, I swear I am just curious, but what is with the dot before a question in your posts? I’ve seen it a couple of times today. 😅

I suppose he's arguing that there was room before but that with both middle class women and men there, working class men didn't have room. A bit like house prices rising when women worked outside the home more and two salaries became more common.

But that doesn't mean middle class women should go to uni less, if that's what he wants.

And as you say, he ignores working class women totally.

So, is your take that only Arabs can be Middle Eastern? Because that's quite a hot take...

Apart from the very obvious 🐘 in the room that I'm not going to touch, while "Arab" is a sort of ethnicity (that gets complicated when people try to tightly define it), places like Lebanon and Jordan have a wide range of types of people and phenotypes all of which would consider themselves Lebanese/Jordanian and only some of whom would call themselves Arab. I think usually Iran is considered part of the Middle East but definitely not Arab. Then there's the Kurds...
It's hard to think of a worse example than "being born in the Middle East doesn't make you an Arab" if your point is being born in England doesn't make you English.

Sorry, I don't mean to 🤣 It just sometimes happens when I quote someone and then hit enter.

Aha 😂, sorry again but I just had to ask for some reason.

I have come across examples of white people born in the Middle East who integrated into the culture from birth (rather than living temporarily as expats) and were accepted as citizens of those particular countries.

Overall though, I think the ME is a poor example, since ethnic conflict is common there, as well as other kinds, so it's unsurprising kids with foreign born parents are less likely to be accepted.

My own example would be my godmother. Born & raised in London but both parents Polish refugees. Should she not be able to call herself British? She certainly still has connections to Polish culture but it would feel bizarre to say she is 'not British' or 'more Polish than British ' .

I was also thinking if by this argument icons of French culture like Charles Aznavour, Isabelle Adjani and Yves Montand are 'not French'. None had French parents : Aznavour's were Armenian refugees, Adjani is German-Arab Algerian, and Montand's were Italian.

Call me old-school, but it's not like groping or being spat at on the street or being punched. A few hurty words is nothing.

• I see what you mean. Otoh I think at least some verbal aggression isn't simply 'hurty words'. Racial slurs for one, or slurs towards disabled people. Sexual harassment can also be verbal, I don't think that should be dismissed as 'just hurty words'

Yes, if they're claiming that, then it's hypocritical.

The thing is though that as I said to pp, black French people came from the colonies en masse since the 1950s. So a black person in , say, 1990s-2000s France or later (not sure when this was) could well have been born & raised there, they wouldn't necessarily be an immigrant.