India – loved it, but I came back feeling so violated.

[LondonLass40]

Just back from the Golden Triangle with my husband (43) and 12yr daughter. Stunning forts, incredible food ( lucky no Delhi belly 😀) amazing history is genuinely breathtaking.

But I’m struggling to process the darker side.

One afternoon in Delhi, my husband stayed at the hotel. I took my daughter to a busy market near cannaught place in broad daylight, crowded. A man walked past and grabbed my breast. Right in front of my daughter. He just kept walking. I froze. My poor girl kept asking why he touched Mummy.

Then there was the constant selfie nonsense when my husband was there and men lining up, putting their arms around me, getting too close while my husband stood there awkwardly not knowing what to do.

And the worst part was at the Red Fort queue. This guy kept pushing into me from behind – clearly not an accident. I turned around and shouted at him. He didn't run, didn't even look embarrassed , he just walked away ignoring me like I was invisible. I spoke to a security guard who just pretend to do something and did absolutely nothing.

I know these issues aren't isolated to India and this could happen in London too. But this was so blatant, so frequent, so relentless that I simply cannot ignore it. I've been to so many tourist destinations around the world and have never experienced harassment on this scale. It felt inescapable.

I don't know – does this only happen to Western women? I'm sure men like this do the same to Indian women too. How on earth do they deal with this every single day? I honestly don't think I'd go back.

I don’t know how you can tell ethnicity by skin colour but that’s by the by.

This is like a trans rights activist level of observation.

And yet stating you are blind to ethnic differences is also deemed racist. Unwinnable, really!

It’s not possible to tell ethnicity from skin colour.

This started with a poster alleging a group of people were not truly French due to skin colour. I disagreed with that.

I have no idea why so many have jumped in with “so what you really mean is” rhetorical devices to make arguments never made.

For the love of God if a comment is part of a quote thread….read the quote thread!

Ok.

I've never been to North Africa, so cannot comment about there, but definitely in Egypt, Oman, UAE and Qatar in the Middle East

Sorry for multiple posts, possibly bad connection

Who mentioned Islam?
And India is not an Islamic country anyway
But definitely seen this in Oman, UAE and Qatar in the Middle East

Sorry for multiple posts, possibly bad connection

Sorry for multiple posts, possibly bad connection

Sorry for multiple posts, possibly bad connection

This is very surprising to me. Never been my experience in Qatar or UAE and neither have a reputation for the type of street harassment mentioned in OP. You would think if that were the case the Brits who have flocked to Dubai and cite how “safe” it is would have noted that?

Egypt is not the Middle East but I cannot comment on Oman, know nothing about it except motor racing and I had an old uni friend from there.

Yes, there are often conflicts of interest between oppressed groups. Eg Muslim parents picketing a school that teaches that gays have equal rights.

This is the sort of thing that befuddleds the left. It's like an Asimov story where the robot implodes because its given conflicting objectives and it cannot cope. Whereas this is all part and parcel of being an adult: dealing with complexity.

YANBU; India’s awful for women. I’d never go out in India without DH, and he should’ve stood up for you.

London is nowhere near as bad as India.

You can make a very good estimate. You can usually tell by looking at someone. People have definitive features.

I didn't have this issue in India. We were southern India going right down to the south west tip at Kanyakamuri. We befriended a boy selling coffee on a bicycle and gave him quite a lot of money. He wanted to be a doctor. The tsunami hit and this area was pretty much obliterated. I thought he might have died which was very sad. But being assaulted? No. Lots of young men wanted pics, but I put DH in the middle and took the pics. The only thing that assaulted me was the poverty, the smells and the sensory overload. Loved the place for all that.

This started with a poster alleging a group of people were not truly French due to skin colour. I disagreed with that.

I think it's fair enough to disagree with that. But also I don't think it's racist to agree. I'm an immigrant and say I have both worlds, not just one. It's different to someone born and bred in UK and been there for generations, for example. Perhaps you'd prefer another way to say it that you'll feel more comfortable with? Native vs not?

Not by skin colour. Did your activity come to an end?

Well we disagree. I think it’s racist to think it’s true.

It is very difficult to tell someone’s nationality by their skin colour. It’s a little easier to tell their ethnicity by skin colour, but it’s not fool proof.

Race is actually a man made construct anyhow. It would make just as much sense to judge a person based on their height, or eye colour, or hair colour as it would to judge them on their race (I.e. neither makes any sense)

Culture is different however.

Its weird how teams like Argentina will say that/have fans saying that, but with 0 awareness that, if held to the same standards, there would be no Argentinian team at all. Pretty much all of them not being of indigenous South American blood. Which then rather raises the question of why European descendants in the Argentinian team get to be Argentinian, but African descendants in the French team don't (despite usually being born and raised in France to parents who were raised in France). Fairly certain the answer is racism.
It's not the only thing wrong with the ethnonationalist approach to football teams. But it's a glaring inconsistency.

I have to say, I do think it's lovely that you're offended on my/other immigrant's behalf. However, I personally think racism is intent, not words used. Actions, not semantics. It's not like anyone is having a go at women of certain races is it? In fact, there's solidarity.

This is true, racism is intent to discriminate. Which is why the ‘ micro aggression’ hounding of people for what is out of their control is so sinister.

I can often tell, or hazard a good guess, which country or at least region in Europe a white person is from, for instance, based on their features.

Likewise if you're from Ghana or Senegal you're going to look outside the norm if you're in say Lesotho.

I can spot other Serbians abroad, and I can differentiate between Croats and Serbs, for example. Different countries have different phenotypes.

There is a difference between someone that was raised in France, by culturally French parents of culturally French parents, and someone that moved to France from another country, or is born there to parents who will raise them according to the cultural norms of another country. This can become problematic if those cultural norms are in direct opposition to the ones of the country they live in. I don’t believe it’s racist or xenophobic to acknowledge that.

As I said earlier in the thread, I’m an immigrant, and my parents are from two different countries, so my opinion hasn’t been formed without firsthand experience.

It's largely a Western phenomenon to give someone citizenship and then view them as somehow as much from/of that country as the natives, though.

I'm no blood-and-soil type and I'd absolutely view someone as English, Scottish or whatever if they were a couple of generations in and had fully integrated - but honestly communities that aren't well integrated, not so much.