India – loved it, but I came back feeling so violated.

[LondonLass40]

Just back from the Golden Triangle with my husband (43) and 12yr daughter. Stunning forts, incredible food ( lucky no Delhi belly 😀) amazing history is genuinely breathtaking.

But I’m struggling to process the darker side.

One afternoon in Delhi, my husband stayed at the hotel. I took my daughter to a busy market near cannaught place in broad daylight, crowded. A man walked past and grabbed my breast. Right in front of my daughter. He just kept walking. I froze. My poor girl kept asking why he touched Mummy.

Then there was the constant selfie nonsense when my husband was there and men lining up, putting their arms around me, getting too close while my husband stood there awkwardly not knowing what to do.

And the worst part was at the Red Fort queue. This guy kept pushing into me from behind – clearly not an accident. I turned around and shouted at him. He didn't run, didn't even look embarrassed , he just walked away ignoring me like I was invisible. I spoke to a security guard who just pretend to do something and did absolutely nothing.

I know these issues aren't isolated to India and this could happen in London too. But this was so blatant, so frequent, so relentless that I simply cannot ignore it. I've been to so many tourist destinations around the world and have never experienced harassment on this scale. It felt inescapable.

I don't know – does this only happen to Western women? I'm sure men like this do the same to Indian women too. How on earth do they deal with this every single day? I honestly don't think I'd go back.

Yes. The left pushing this onto women and girls is so bad. Idk why women support it especially if they have DDs.

I'm an Indian. I can usually (but not always) tell a fellow Indian when I see them.

Yes, it doesn’t make sense. But I think for the 'progressive' mindset there is an oppression tree and race / ethnicity sits at the top, probably along with trans. Other issues like gay rights, women's rights, are some way down.

Class politics are nowhere to be seen, unfortunately.

I am reminded of the David Willets comments about how middle class women have made it harder for working class men to get to university. It's obviously taken as read that middle class men will always be at the top and we're just arguing about who comes next. Working class women not even part of the conversation

The freedom and life we women have here is very precious and hard fought by our grandmothers. Going to other countries the contrast in how women are treated can be jarring as op has found and I did too.

I fully understand the instinctive “be kind” anti racism of the left but that cannot be indulged at the expense of women here. It is very difficult for those of us that are not right wing but prioritise women. God knows where we sit politically now.

Yes, the Guardian really showed its hand with that article.

Also Labour's latest initiative is to criminalise cat calling, which is a good thing. But then they minimise the industrial-scale sexual abuse carried out by the grooming gangs all across the UK.

You cannot tell somebody’s nationality by looking at them.

But I go back to my earlier points: racist / bored / not a good use of time.

How have middle class women made it harder for working class men to get to university?

According to David Willets, they take up some of the spaces. And then do "assortative mating" a lovely term. But most telling about his views is that he obviously thought middle class men obviously deserve the spaces and opportunities and doesn't even consider working class women

www.theguardian.com/politics/2011/apr/01/david-willetts-feminism-lack-of-jobs

You can't tell what passport they hold but you can reasonably infer their ethnicity.

I can often tell a British person when abroad

and Brits are very multi cultural (more so than India) it’s a mixture of mannerisms, clothing, how they interact etc

I suppose that younger women take it all for granted.
Rags to riches then back to rags again if that makes sense.

They cannot imagine not having these rights so see no reason that they'd be gone.
I'll say this: if men who come from cultures who have next to no respect for women continue to enter this country at a high rate, being wolf whistled at will be the least of it.

I'm not kind about this. At all.

Oh I thought it was going to be a sensible (!!) argument but it seems he is just engaging in sexism and male entitlement (to university place and women’s bodies).

Let me read the article - I fancy a laugh.

Sure ok. I am aware this is what racists think.

It’s predictable.
It’s boring.

Oh I remember this from a while back:

”Willetts said feminism was probably the "single biggest factor" for the lack of social mobility in Britain, because women who would otherwise have been housewives had taken university places and well-paid jobs that could have gone to ambitious working-class men.

It’s bizarre they think that middle class women are overwhelmingly taking jobs that used to be done by working class men back when the tendency was for most women to be houswives.

Many jobs now did not even exist then. According to Goldman’s it’s near 60% of jobs that exist now did not in the 50s.

To even notice a person's ethnicity is now racist?

Saying people cannot be truely French due to skin colour is racist. Yes.

Assuming you can tell where somebody is from by skin colour is also racist. Yes.

I also have zero idea how you can tell somebody’s ethnicity by looking at their skin colour but that’s by the by.

People refer to themselves according to a mixture of their ethnicity/nationality all the time: British Indian, British Asian, British Chinese, white British. It's not racist to notice a person's ethnicity. And it's not just about skin colour it's about facial features, sometimes body shape, hair colour, cultural practices, language, dress etc.

They are tied up in knots with wanting to be right-on. It’s normally the left wing wealthy middle classes living in areas not affected by culture wars.

Oh it's Gaby Hinsliff. Of course she calls anyone outraged by the attacks as "racist"

Tunisia was awful. Just awful.

Thanks for the link. How is SA listed under Scams or Protecting your Belongings??

I don’t know how you can tell ethnicity by skin colour but that’s by the by.

This: “It's not racist to notice a person's ethnicity” is fascinating but irrelevant. Try reading what I wrote. Or even following quote threads before interjecting with irrelevant observations. The person I was responding to referred to people as not French due to skin colour. Nothing in your post has any relevance to that. I did not ask for a definition of ethnicity. I am quite aware what the definition is.

What it does point to is a sense of ingrained subconscious misogyny in themselves. Ultimately when faced with two traditionally downtrodden groups (non white people vs women) they cant help but put women at the bottom of the pile.

Most non-white people are also women.

Of course, it's not racist to observe things with your own eyes. What?! It's possible to tell different white Europeans from each other.

Do you also have difficulty telling a man from a woman?