AIBU to think neighbours should not be naked in their garden?

[babypickles]

For context: Our house is on a new build estate and the houses are pretty close together. It’s fairly easy to see into neighbours gardens because the trees etc are not well established yet.

AIBU to say my neighbours shouldn’t be naked in their garden. They are often out in the garden totally naked taking photos of themselves. They have parties quite often and it’s not uncommon for them and friends to be out in the garden naked / using the hot tub etc.

Am I being a killjoy ? Seems excessive to me.

LOL. I'd happily admit to being a debauched pervert. Badge of honour, as far as I'm concerned.

As it happens, I'm actually very uptight about being naked/scantily clad in public. I don't even like being seen in a one-piece swimsuit. I'm also colossally introverted and the idea of sharing a hot tub with friends is my idea of hell. My own perverted debaucheries of choice are undertaken in privacy.

I don't, however, think other people are 'perverts' or 'debauched' for being naked in their own gardens. It wouldn't bother me in the slightest if my neighbours were doing that. It's not like they're holding orgies on their lawn or standing on their decking having a wank over the OP's fence. I'd find it funny, probably. I certainly wouldn't start talking about them like I was a member of the Plymouth Brethren.

Most of the boys I know wouldn't, to be honest.

Boys who have been sexually abused are unlikely to, especially if the nude antics fall into a sexual type category and it sounds as though this might

This

And even when there are no sexual or abuse issues, most people would greatly prefer to choose when and who they see naked. And most people are aware of that and respect it.

Quite! To go by some people's responses on this thread, though, those of us who hold this preference are prudes, killjoys and even fascists! 😂It's been positively surreal in places.

Re your previous post, I also agree that the behaviour of these neighbours possibly crosses the line into sexualised nudity. It certainly feels performative/exhibitionist at least, going by how OP has described it.

Why should anyone have to tolerate that when nudity is sexual, whether you like it or not.

No. Simple nudity is not inherently sexual. The philosophy of naturism is about immersing oneself in nature, the feeling of being at one with the natural elements - air, water, light and sun, which has many benefits for our mental wellbeing. It is also closely linked to environmental awareness and sustainability, giving us a heightened respect for nature and the planet.

As for causing trauma to SA victims, well I’m sorry but I just don’t buy that, and there is no empirical evidence to support that assertion. I’m sure you don’t need me to tell you that you don’t need to be naked to display sexual behaviour, and conversely being naked does not automatically equate to being sexual.

Over time, human nature has unfortunately altered the context of that simple non-sexual nudity you describe, that's the trouble, although I do get what you are saying. I also see the point you are making in your final sentence. But to say that you 'don't buy' what people are trying to tell you about how public nudity can affect victims of SA is breathtakingly arrogant and insensitive.

And if you really think we live in a world where nudity can be simply about 'air, water, light and sun' and 'environmental awareness and sustainability', then I think the fairies stole your common sense along with your clothes.

Look, be a naturist to your heart's content. Fill your non-existent boots. But the wider world is highly unlikely to ever wholly adopt your way of living, and you (along with several other proselytisers on this thread) really seem to have a problem with that. Perhaps those of us who choose to keep our clothes on aren't the ones whose horizons need widening.

I don’t do it in front of my children. So I also abide by only sunbathing / gardening in the nude during term time school hours. So basically work days off only.

But I get that’s a choice I’ve made.

However that doesn’t stop them coming in the bathroom while I’m showering.

If my neighbours were nude I’d just tell my children not to stare. Though we don’t tend to spend time just sitting or standing at our upstairs windows looking over other peoples land.

But to say that you 'don't buy' what people are trying to tell you about how public nudity can affect victims of SA is breathtakingly arrogant and insensitive.

Nobody is trying to tell me that apart from a handful of pearl-clutching MNers trying in vain to claim the moral high ground. I’ll reiterate again, for complete clarity and the avoidance of any doubt, there is no hard evidence to support the claim that naturism causes trauma to SA victims, much as I am of course sympathetic to their experiences.

You said in an earlier post (I think) that fascism was about putting the greater needs before individual needs. In fact most societies need to put greater needs ahead of individual needs, as any sort of governance would be impossible otherwise, and I think you misunderstand fascism - fascism is about extreme nationalism sometimes involving inhumane treatment of other ethnic groups which they consider inferior. Whereas social rules about not being naked in certain areas are to do with showing respect to others. Social rules also expect people to not eat with their mouth open, not pick their nose or burp or fart in public, etc - I am assuming that all those social rules are not fascist.

Respect for others and following social rules is nothing to do with DARVO.

Relevant legislation is that sexual nakedness is not within the law, and my money would be on what is going on here and what you are promoting might in fact fall within this category and not be within the law.

Actually there have been a few threads on MN in the past on which activities which claimed to be naturist were being questioned, and quite a few posters on the threads had said that as children their parents had been part of naturist circles and there had been sex abuse of children within the naturist groups. So while yes there are genuine naturists, there are also adults who say they are naturists and abuse the situation, according to first hand witnesses and people who experienced CSA.

In relation to being triggered, yes indeed people who have suffered CSA can be triggered by seeing people naked - not necessarily every situation but the risk is absolutely going to be there.

One of the threads about suspected fake naturism was about some swimming pool special naturist events where male naturists were bringing along 14 year old friends, for example. NSPCC were notified.

This is not to discredit real naturists, obviously.

I haven’t mentioned fascism at any point.

Must cost them a fortune in sun cream

As a genuine naturist obviously I can’t comment on any individual cases as they are purely hearsay, nor of course would I condone any sexual activity or abuse masquerading as naturism. Thankfully we have never come across anything untoward in our experiences whilst with our family.

All you've accomplished with that response is to paint us a very clear picture of how much you really care about the world around you, i.e. not at all, despite the touching little trees-and-flowers-and-the-innocent-joys-of-nudity pastoral you attempted to create upthread. 🙄

The denial and dismissiveness with which you've addressed the fact that people on this thread are literally telling you public nudity can affect SA victims just says it all. There doesn't need to be 'hard evidence' of something for it to be true, ffs, and I don't believe you in the slightest when you say you are 'sympathetic to their experiences', you wouldn't have felt the need to resort to sneering if you were. The fact that you've had to fall back on 'pearl-clutching' to make your so-called point just says it all as far as I'm concerned. 😴

You've shown pretty much zero willingness, or even ability, on this thread to take on board anyone's perspective except your own. It gets old very quickly when people show no openness to perspectives other than their own, and you'll no doubt be delighted to hear I'm done engaging now, better things to do with my time. Bye, have a wonderful naked weekend, and don't forget to keep applying the sunscreen.

Sorry, I linked the wrong post. It was a different poster upthread talking about fascism and DARVO.

You've shown pretty much zero willingness, or even ability, on this thread to take on board anyone's perspective except your own.

The irony in this comment is frankly staggering. Try applying it to your own narrow-minded comments and see how well it fits. Are we to assume that you think your rights not to see naked people trump our rights to be naked in our own gardens?

Curious response to what I wrote. "Hearsay" is not relevant - it is only relevant in relation to legal actions - did you mean "I haven't seen this or thought about it therefore it doesn't exist"? If so, that is more to do with psychological theory of mind, not hearsay. Or did you mean "I have no interest in discussing the sort of things you mention"?

You don't necessarily have rights to be naked in your garden. Nakedness even on private property is not always legal.

It is not illegal to be naked providing there is no sexual context and no deliberate intention to cause alarm, harassment or distress to others (as opposed to considering the likelihood of this
happening or the complainant personally finding
nudity distasteful or offensive).

The College of Policing guidelines explain further: https://library.college.police.uk/docs/college-of-policing/C849IO118-public-nudity-aid-revised.pdf

Sorry what I meant to say was that I don’t have any personal knowledge of the cases alluded to. I don’t mean to sound dismissive or in denial, I should make clear that I absolutely do not condone any one individual or group masquerading as naturists for nefarious purposes. As you might imagine, it gives the rest of us a bad name.

If OP said to her NDNs that she was concerned about her son and asked them to put up a privacy screen above or by the side so that he couldn't see what was going on, and they ignored this, and she asked them not to have naked parties with naked butlers etc, and they ignored that, would you think that this might not be naturism but in fact something sexual which could cause offence?

I am not sure if you have already answered that, I haven't read all posts.

Agree it'd be very telling how the NDNs would respond to a request like this!

Exactly. I posted something similar up thread, and despite emphasising the word ‘potentially’ when I said that being naked on your own property could potentially be illegal, lo and behold that word got ignored and I got the predictable scoffing response about how the police wouldn’t be interested in these neighbours.

Anyone who talks about one right trumping another sets my teeth on edge tbh. @Myli1 neither right you refer to exists, so it’s not possible for one to trump the other. Our legal system is based essentially on a list of things you can’t do, and we do not have a list of things you have a right to like America. As has already been pointed out not just by @chtewalk , being naked on your own property can be illegal, there is absolutely no right to it.

That isn’t strictly true, see below. Also by your own argument, logically anything that isn’t legally prohibited must be legally permitted? Please see my previous comments including the College of Policing document which does in fact cover the rights of naturists.

“Naturists have a right to freedom of expression which only
engages criminal law if they commit sexual offences or
use disorderly behaviour that they intend to or are aware
may be disorderly within the hearing or sight of a person
likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress.”

“At the time that the Sexual Offences Act 2003 was
debated in Parliament, care was taken to word the
legislation in a way specifically intended to avoid it
impinging on the rights and activities of naturists.”

You’re right to point out that we do in a way have a list of rights now that we have the HRA. But a right to be naked in your own garden is not enshrined in law. We all have a right to freedom of expression, true. That derives from the HRA, not from anywhere it is discussed or alluded to such as the College of Policing document.

Funnily enough my first jury trial was on a number of charges of Exposure under what was then the new legislation over 20 years ago! So I don’t need to keep being told what the College of Policing document says about it.