AIBU to think neighbours should not be naked in their garden?

[babypickles]

For context: Our house is on a new build estate and the houses are pretty close together. It’s fairly easy to see into neighbours gardens because the trees etc are not well established yet.

AIBU to say my neighbours shouldn’t be naked in their garden. They are often out in the garden totally naked taking photos of themselves. They have parties quite often and it’s not uncommon for them and friends to be out in the garden naked / using the hot tub etc.

Am I being a killjoy ? Seems excessive to me.

You make a really good point but the behaviour of the OP's neighbour is pretty extreme, not like someone sunbathing topless in their back garden.

You seem unable to accept the fact that despite the fact it’s perfectly legal, some people may have a problem with seeing strangers naked or have a problem with their kids seeing strangers naked.

Of course I accept that people have a problem with it.
I will never deny that people have the feelings they have.

But just because some people have a problem with some thing doesn't mean they can legitimately claim it's illegal or disgusting when, as you say, it's legal.

And they don't have the right to claim that "society" or "being good neighbours" means another person should stop what they're doing.

It's the equivalent of the nudists demanding that other people should stop having a problem with it. Or some git of a man telling you that your dress should always cover your ankles.

Whose competing feeling trumps whose?

In this case, it's decided by existing statute.

?? What a strange comment! I’m not simply speaking from
my own experiences. I’m speaking from knowledge of the country’s culture and history.

There is no historical record demonstrating that public nudity has been a social norm or widespread practice in the UK.

There are existing laws around indecent exposure (ie flashing). A bikini covers the genitals, and would not fall foul of the law.

But the statistics simply don’t bear out your statement do they? As much as you might want them to.

Which statistics are you talking about?

The only statistics you’ve quoted were the ones that showed 6.75 million of people ‘identified as’ having an interest in naturism.

But you can’t be referring to them, as they demonstrate that less than 10% of the population ‘identify’ as nudists.

So 90% don’t identify as nudists.

So the norm is NOT to be nudists. They are very definitely a minority.

Hence we don’t see people wandering up and down the street in the buff, and the documentary evidence from film and photographic images doesn’t show widespread nudity in day to day life in the UK.

I’m not saying that because someone is offended something should automatically be illegal. But legality shouldn’t be the only consideration when it comes to behaviour.

My point throughout has been that in a good society we expect people to exercise their lawful freedom with consideration for others and being a good neighbour often means accommodating people even when you’re under no legal obligation to do so. Taking my earlier example- you pointed out it actually would be illegal for my children to be noisy in the garden at 6am, but changing the time to 7am wouldn’t change my approach to the situation because I’m considering what’s neighbourly, considerate behaviour- not just what my “legal rights” are. In the case of nudity, neighbour is perfectly within their rights to be naked in garden but with the knowledge they are directly overlooked by another family surely a reasonable consideration for them would be could their behaviour cause offence, upset or distress as they are likely aware most people aren’t accustomed to seeing strangers naked- it is not the societal norm in our culture.

I don’t think my feelings automatically trump yours but I think both people’s interests need to be weighed up. My husband and I may wish to sit naked in the garden, as is our right, and our neighbour may be upset and worried about her child seeing us. Us choosing to forgo being naked will not cause us any harm or upset or whereas persisting with it may cause harm or upset to our neighbour.

Saying “it’s legal, therefore everyone else just has to accept it” is just as absolutist as saying “I’m offended, therefore it should be banned.”

I think you may have misquoted there. What I actually stated was that 6.75 million people in the UK identified AS naturists or nudists, not simply “having an interest in naturism”. So yes, people sunbathing naked in their gardens in this heat absolutely is normal, whether you like it or not. At the local leisure centre in our town you can swim naked in the pool and use the saunas and steam rooms without the encumbrances of clothing every weekend, and those events are always popular and well-attended. The same kind of thing is replicated in many places up and down the country. So we can safely say that naturism isn’t in fact a “fringe sub-culture” as you attempted to assert.

I don’t think my feelings automatically trump yours but I think both people’s interests need to be weighed up. My husband and I may wish to sit naked in the garden, as is our right, and our neighbour may be upset and worried about her child seeing us. Us choosing to forgo being naked will not cause us any harm or upset or whereas persisting with it may cause harm or upset to our neighbour.

But you pick an example where you are not invested in it anyway - so of course it won't cause you harm or upset if you don't want to do it anyway.

You could just as easily argue that drawing their curtains or frosting their windows is an equitable solution. Indeed it is the only one that would give them control over their harm and upset.

The point is that, in this particular case, both sides are invested in their preferred position. OP's neighbours would obviously have to change their lifestyle considerably and so they would suffer to accommodate OP.

There is no apparent quid pro quo in this from your point of view.

If you were genuinely taking account of peoples interests, then your proposed solution would have been that you only sit naked in your garden for half the day, or specific days, etc.

Which I think makes your comment disingenous rather than illustrative.

Alright here’s some better examples

• I would love to stick my kids in the garden at unsociable (but legal) hours for my own sanity but don’t. And yes, it is an inconvenience to keep them inside
• I’m currently pregnant with bad sciatica but don’t park in a parent and child bays when I don’t have the kids -even though P&C bays aren’t protected by law because I know it’s a dick move if someone with a car seat can’t get a spot there

There’s two off the top of my head. No legal mandate for either, both cause inconvenience or in the case of the latter physical pain due to longer distance to walk. And being on the receiving end of either of these inconsiderate behaviours still wouldn’t equate to what it feels like to unwillingly and unexpectedly see a naked man, for some women.

I won’t argue with you further. If you can’t see that a person who doesn’t want themselves or their child exposed to nudity shouldn’t trump the interests of the person who wants to be naked, I can’t help you. Also if anyone is going to (in your words) “suffer” by having to put on underwear, I can recommend M&S, I’ve always found them to be quite comfy.

Why would ANYone want to sit in their garden naked?! 😂 OMG, what odd, attention-seeking behaviour!

It’s funny how little the ‘let it all hang out’ lobby seems to have to say on that aspect of things… I may have missed posts, but I’ve not really seen it addressed.

If anyone fancies diving into that “7 million naturists” data from 2022 survey.

https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2022-10/british-naturism-survey-ipsos-tables-2022.pdf

Oh well, in that case it’s fine to go nude / have sex in public whenever we want. What a spurious argument.

It does seem excessive, but I suppose there's not a lot you can do.
I live in East Germany and they have a nudity culture. Being a bit less prudish in terms of nakedness is healthy I suppose, but saying that, I've never seen any walking around naked in their gardens.

What I actually stated was that 6.75 million people in the UK identified AS naturists or nudists, not simply “having an interest in naturism”

The slight variations in the semantics here make no difference to my point. It's still less than 10% of the population. So could never be described as a 'norm'.

As it is not the norm - and runs counter to the norms prevailing in society - it does meet the definition of a 'fringe sub-culture'. I'm not sure why you have a problem with it being viewed as such? That description is not necessarily pejorative, it merely describes the fact it isn't mainstream.

Regarding swimming, as I stated before, I'm perfectly well aware there are nudist clubs and resorts in the UK. In these spaces, people have chosen to be there and consent to it. That's very different to public nudity.

Where do you live that it's 'normal' for people to sunbathe naked while observable in their back gardens?

Googling 'naturist swimming places in Greater London' throws up a grand total of 4 places in the whole of London that offer naked swimming to the general public.

None of the leisure centres in my borough (an inner London borough) or any of the neighbouring boroughs offer it.

Not indicative of a high level of demand in a city of 9 million people.

Putting on clothes for hot tubs does feel weird to me too. Probably done it naked (with friends) for about 5 years, but went to Centre Parcs and it felt so weird having wet clothes on. It doesn't feel very comfortable at this point.

The “semantics”’ as you refer to them make every difference. But of course you knew that didn’t you?
Being in the minority doesn’t automatically make something “not normal”. Around 8% of people commute to and from work by bus. Would you describe them as “not normal” or as a “fringe sub-culture”? And if not, why not?
Where I live is on any “normal” road in any “normal” town, and yes, there are people that sunbathe naked in their gardens during this heatwave. To the best of my knowledge no-one has so far sent round a lynch mob to have them executed.

Last nights party was still in full swing at 330 am.

My neighbour (who is friends with them on FB) has said they had a “Butler in the Buff”.

It’s all a bit cringe.

And of course if you’d like me to I can find a whole raft of events that completely contradict your findings.

As I've said before you sound like an admirable parent and its nice that you are considerate of others.

And we can agree to disagree rather than talk more. That's not unreasonable.

But in saying...
If you can’t see that a person who doesn’t want themselves or their child exposed to nudity shouldn’t trump the interests of the person who wants to be naked, I can’t help you
...you've just reversed your stated position of being considerate toward others by saying "only my opinion matters".

Nonetheless, have a nice evening and I hope the sciatica improves

Thank you, that’s kind of you to say

I think you have totally misunderstood my point!

I totally haven't. You have totally conflated two different issues