That women should not be banned from Social Media for asking the question ( Thread 4)

[Langrycleg]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

But surely you would be more comfortable in a third space yourself, jj, as a GNC male?

Yes I very much would, but unfortunately for the reasons I've listed I don't think it's the magic solution people are claiming.

What is all this stuff about "outing" people?

Like exposing a male body isn't outing when it's in a womans space but using a third space when no one will actually give a shit or even be laying attention what you r doing as long as its not bothering them somehow is?

Now, if the passing tw are really women, you would expect them to have a bit of sympathy for us

You'd think, wouldn't you.

A naked Transwoman is a man.
A naked Transman is a woman.

In an operating theatre the biological reality would become clear.

Trans campaigners who deny biological reality are endangering those they purport to support

Which spaces should someone who looks like Buck Angel use today, not in some mythical future after a successful campaign to win third spaces ad they've all been built

I'd like to know the answer to that too
It keeps getting batted away
There are no third spaces at present.
So where do people like Buck go?
People on here say "biologically female, course is welcome in the women's loos!"
If you were oblivious to trans issues, they look male.
How would you even know they weren't male if went in the women's?
Would women be happy with very male presenting trans men in their spaces?
If so, how would you know or ascertain they were trans?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Most people's physical sex is blindingly obvious. This is only a problem because male people don't respect women.

Most people's is but some people's isn't, and it would be them who suffer most, although it would also give a licence to any dickhead homophobic security guard who wanted to harass any vaguely masculine appearing women or feminine appearing men and demand to see their papers before they can go for a pee.

Fair Play for Women have already called for shop assistants to ask to see the birth certificates of anyone whose physical sex cannot be easily established before they are allowed to use a changing room.

Argument no 3:

Women, it's too hard to stop men getting into your single sex spaces, you can't have boundaries because male people will always have a way around them. Men will obviously never respect female needs or boundaries and it would be too hard and upsetting to try and police their attempts to get into female spaces where non consenting females are vulnerable. You might as well give up. Mixed sex or nothing; men win.

Every time I think this cannot get any more sexist we go a little deeper.

jj1968

I have no problem answering this and it may be different from others. But I have listened to many people's opinions and changed mine over time.

My issue is with female people's safety. That is my priority and I have never made any attempt to hide this. If a transman passes well enough due to testosterone treatment, they can cause distress (from accounts from women who have suffered rape and violence from males) just as males identifying as women can.

If they want to continue to live as a man, and men are happy for these people to use their facilities, they should use the provision set aside for men. It is up to men to state how they feel about this, maybe if men complained those third spaces would just happen.

I have recently read an account of a detransitioner who confessed that she was abused by a male early in her transition as a transman and sadly, held on to go to the toilet until she could use a unisex or gender neutral toilet.

It seems jj this is an issue already being discussed by transmen. They seem to understand that their presence can cause women and children distress in the women's single sex spaces.

Again, why is this do you think????

I believe birth certificates should be able to be asked for for jobs etc. I think it's important for people's sex to be recorded in the workplace.

Or that you shouldn't be able to change your passport or driving licence without a GRC. I think that would be fair and in line with the law.

[quote jj1968]@Winesalot

I want to know what spaces trans people should use today not after I'm probably dead.[/quote]
And again j j, your refusal to campaign for third spaces is very clear.

As is your reliance on female's for security and whatever else you seem to need females in the female's single sex spaces for.

who wanted to harass any vaguely masculine appearing women or feminine appearing men and demand to see their papers before they can go for a pee

See, I find that a much more worrying thought than a trans woman maybe or maybe not being in the loos!
How would you even know who is or isn't, you CANNOT always tell, regardless of what people on here might say.
It comes down to if you're not butch or your "what a woman looks like" whatever the fuck that means

I don't get it. There are so many parallels with the homophobic hate of the 80s. Don't let gays near my kids etc.
If someone is going to assault me they are very unlikely to do it in the ladies bog are they? Come on.
I've been sexually abused and raped. Those men did not need to pretend to be women to do that to me, neither did they need to enter any spaces that were for women only. Much easier to do it anywhere else actually.
I know trans women and they have had really difficult lives. Lives where they are confused, bullied, not accepted by family and peers.
When Ive travelled in France and Denmark and probably other places, I've used facilities that are for both sexes. Do those countries have higher rates of sexual assault? Unlikely.

Women, it's too hard to stop men getting into your single sex spaces, you can't have boundaries because male people will always have a way around them. Men will obviously never respect female needs or boundaries and it would be too hard and upsetting to try and police their attempts to get into female spaces where non consenting females are vulnerable. You might as well give up. Mixed sex or nothing; men win.

YY. There's no incentive to ask males to respect women's privacy and dignity, no reason to tell MTFs to use a different space. Let's just get rid of all laws because you can't stop crime happening.

According to you, we will single-handedly be decimating the tourist industry, because of all the trans people in the world who refuse to come here due to our sex segregated loos.

yes, I remember this argument from other threads.

And again j j, your refusal to campaign for third spaces is very clear

Why is it still not being answered and swerved again though?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I believe birth certificates should be able to be asked for for jobs etc. I think it's important for people's sex to be recorded in the workplace.

Or that you shouldn't be able to change your passport or driving licence without a GRC. I think that would be fair and in line with the law.

But then what do we do about people who take the piss out of the GRC system (Freddy McConnell)

If they want to continue to live as a man, and men are happy for these people to use their facilities, they should use the provision set aside for men.

So you believe that female sexed people should have the right to undress and shower in a communal changing room with teenage boys do you?

To paraphrase a question that's been on everyone's lips.

I don't get it. There are so many parallels with the homophobic hate of the 80s. Don't let gays near my kids etc.

No there aren't. You should probably check out how many TRAs think that exclusive same sex attraction is bigoted and that lesbians should accept male people in their dating pool.

So you believe that female sexed people should have the right to undress and shower in a communal changing room with teenage boys do you?

Depends what the boys think. If they object, then personally I don't think they should.

No there aren't. You should probably check out how many TRAs think that exclusive same sex attraction is bigoted and that lesbians should accept male people in their dating pool.

But TRA's do not represent the trans people I know. Most trans people just want a quiet life actually.

So you believe that female sexed people should have the right to undress and shower in a communal changing room with teenage boys do you?

As females statistically represent a far lesser danger to boys than the adult males they are already changing with I think this is a bit of a red herring..

You should probably check out how many TRAs think that exclusive same sex attraction is bigoted and that lesbians should accept male people in their dating pool

You're attracted to who you're attracted though, whether gay, straight, trans etc.
You've always the right to say no.
Even if your reason is because someone is trans.
Some will be OK with dating trans women
Some won't
Everyone's different.

But TRA's do not represent the trans people I know. Most trans people just want a quiet life actually.

So do most women, with female spaces when we need them.

@jj1968

If they want to continue to live as a man, and men are happy for these people to use their facilities, they should use the provision set aside for men.

So you believe that female sexed people should have the right to undress and shower in a communal changing room with teenage boys do you?

This is not a gotcha j j. I know that you think it is.