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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

That women should not be banned from Social Media for asking the question ( Thread 4)

999 replies

Langrycleg · 01/02/2021 10:56

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
334bu · 01/02/2021 11:29

Thread now appearing.

334bu · 01/02/2021 11:30

How do you hide a thread?

CoffeeTeaChocolate · 01/02/2021 11:31

@Fastedbrownie

I am a bit confused.

You argue that many women here do not understand the issues your child has been going through and is still going through.

Many people here argue that you don’t show enough empathy for what you describe as “faceless hypothetical rape victims”.

We are also very emotional and focus on the issues which concerns us the most.

Why you think that a trans woman can adequately represent female issues given all this? Wouldn’t it make much more sense to have a trans position?

PinkyU · 01/02/2021 11:31

@TottiePlantagenet I don’t personally have an issue with that.

I do understand that others do, but the thread question related to personal views, I’ve shared that.

Fastedbrownie · 01/02/2021 11:32

@334bu

How do you hide a thread?
I'm on mobile and there's a little arrow up by the thread title. Click on it and a options list will come down.
Original poster
Langrycleg · 01/02/2021 11:33

PinkyU sorry finding it hard to keep up! What I meant was why do you think a father might want to take his child into the women’s facilities for changing purposes?

OP posts:
334bu · 01/02/2021 11:33

Thank you.

DedlyMedally · 01/02/2021 11:33

The person was probably banned because it's a dog-whistle. SM sites ban for dog-whistles all the time.
The fact that it seems innocuous to an outsider and people can get indignant about it is the whole point of a dog-whistle.

NewarkShark · 01/02/2021 11:34

[quote PinkyU]@NewarkShark, is it not? What does it say then?[/quote]
No, it isn’t. I’m a discrimination lawyer. I’m not surprised you think that because that is a misconception that Stonewall are peddling.

People with a protected characteristic of gender reassignment are protected from being treated less favourably because of that characteristic. However that begs the question less favourably than whom? The equality act does not specifically say (other than someone in like circumstances but that again takes a question of who that applies to).

The correct comparator is always something which crops up in any discrimination case and there isn’t always a clear answer. Currently the only case authority that I know which deals with this says that a transgender person’s comparator is someone of the same sex who is not undergoing gender reassignment.

The position may be different if someone has a GRC because that person’s legal sex has changed. But it certainly isn’t the case that as soon as someone identifies as a woman the Equality Act says they must be treated the same as someone born a woman.

PinkyU · 01/02/2021 11:35

@purpleboy no, of course not. I also don’t believe that the small but vocal number of gender critical people on here should be viewed as wholly representative of feminist views.

NotBadConsidering · 01/02/2021 11:35

@Fastedbrownie

Oh, and the obligatory message.

MNHQ - please don't delete or strike users asking me questions. Even if they are strongly worded, I'm fine with them.

A question (one of many) left unanswered at end of the older thread:

It's not permanently abolished, just while on blockers. Sd started coming off them at 19.

It is for some, who were placed on puberty blockers earlier and for those who progress to gonadectomy. Can children consent to having a future libido either abolished, or diminished below expected levels? You said yourself (a phrase I’ve repeated many times on this thread) that your step child’s libido isn’t what you’d expect it to be.

Can a child consent to this?

334bu · 01/02/2021 11:35

So Pinky what are your boundaries in the fight to keep women safe from male violence?

Fastedbrownie · 01/02/2021 11:35

[quote CoffeeTeaChocolate]@Fastedbrownie

I am a bit confused.

You argue that many women here do not understand the issues your child has been going through and is still going through.

Many people here argue that you don’t show enough empathy for what you describe as “faceless hypothetical rape victims”.

We are also very emotional and focus on the issues which concerns us the most.

Why you think that a trans woman can adequately represent female issues given all this? Wouldn’t it make much more sense to have a trans position?[/quote]
Short answer is, I don't. I think there should be a trans and women's position, but unfortunately there often isn't and natal women and transwomen get lumped together. As long as that keeps happening, I believe transwoman have a right to stand for those positions. Especially when being voted upon by their peers.

PurpleHoodie · 01/02/2021 11:36

A trans person does not have the right to access the facilities of their acquired gender. This is a misrepresentation of the equality act

For the lurkers.

This.

OP - Yanbu.

PinkyU · 01/02/2021 11:37

@Langrycleg yes, very fast moving.

Frequently there are no changing facilities in the men’s room, I’d much rather they used the changing facilities in the women’s room than used the facilities for disabled people.

PotholeParadies · 01/02/2021 11:38

@PinkyU

Even the way you’ve worded the questions oozes such bias.

Should men access womens changing areas? No, obviously not.

Should trans people be allowed to use the facilities they’re legally allowed to use? Yes, I think they should.

It is factual phrasing.
purpleboy · 01/02/2021 11:41

Pinky I think you would be surprised by the number of people who agree with gender critical women. Having had these conversations I haven't come across a single person who thinks it's a good idea for TW to be in women's spaces. Most start from a place of being kind and feeling much empathy, because they don't really think further about the implications, as soon as they are mentioned their opinion changes to a GC perspective. I'd say it's a lot more mainstream that you would like to believe.

Fastedbrownie · 01/02/2021 11:41

Not

Again, I can only speak from my experience, but in our family's case it was something that was deemed medically necessary and I honestly believe that had we needed to take it before a judge we would've been granted permission.

borntobequiet · 01/02/2021 11:41

In non-Covid times I use a local gym. The changing rooms are open plan and the showers have fairly flimsy curtains.

I was getting dressed after a gym session one day when the gender self-ID controversy was at its height - in the Man Friday days - when two girls, aged maybe 11-12 came in to change for a swim. They were chattering away quite happily and getting changed modestly but unselfconsciously. I was struck by the thought that if gender self ID became normalised, I could have been a fully physically male 66 year person in there with the girls, simply claiming to be a woman, no hormones, no surgery. My granddaughters are just coming up to that age, when they should be able to use such changing rooms without embarrassment or fear. That really brought it home to me. I believe the self-ID thing is off the cards now, I do hope so, though some seem to still be pushing it.

lifeturnsonadime · 01/02/2021 11:42

[quote PinkyU]@Langrycleg yes, very fast moving.

Frequently there are no changing facilities in the men’s room, I’d much rather they used the changing facilities in the women’s room than used the facilities for disabled people.[/quote]
Well that's nice but there is no legal right for a male bodied person to use Sex based provisions designed for women.

I'd rather not share facilities with a male.

Why do your wants trump my needs?

Original poster
Langrycleg · 01/02/2021 11:42

Dedly so why aren’t these sites also banning the violent rape and death threats regularly posted in response to said dog whistle -concerns-

OP posts:
334bu · 01/02/2021 11:42

PinkyU
Transwomen are males and as likely to be violent to women as any other males. So what boundaries would you draw to protect women from male violence?

NotBadConsidering · 01/02/2021 11:45

@Fastedbrownie

Not

Again, I can only speak from my experience, but in our family's case it was something that was deemed medically necessary and I honestly believe that had we needed to take it before a judge we would've been granted permission.

But that isn’t the question. The question is can children consent? Even if you think a judge would have granted permission, do you think children can consent to drugs that impact their future sexual function?
Original poster
Langrycleg · 01/02/2021 11:45

pinkyu I would be concerned if a girl child was taken in to male facilities...if it was just about the changing pad this could be easily remedied.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/02/2021 11:47

That’s precisely what it does mean though, a trans parson has the right to access the facilities of their gender regardless of the views of anyone else.

There is no legally protected right for males to access female spaces. Without a GRC biologically male people with the protected characteristic of "gender reassignment" are legally male under the EA2010. And there are single sex exemptions possible for service providers as part of the "sex" protected characteristic.