That women should not be banned from Social Media for asking the question ( Thread 4)

[Langrycleg]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

A fourth thread, my word. The answer is still the same for me as it is for 95% of respondents here.

Women should not have to accept males into their single sex spaces. No matter how the male feels. No matter the hairstyle, clothing or plastic surgery that has or hasn't been had by said male.

Only women have to deal with menstruation, pregnancy, miscarriage, menopause. Only males have the ability to impregnate women.

It's really quite straightforward, no matter how many people would like to try and confuse the issues with 'new science'.

Humans are a dimorphic species; women are statistically vulnerable to males.

I've not even got to privacy, dignity and how the WOMEN feel, although oddly that doesn't ever seem to be raised.

Why is it that a male is granted access to women's spaces because he wants it, but a woman isn't granted any agency over her desire for a single sex space? Why does a male want matter more than a female want?

@Winesalot

As is your reliance on female's for security and whatever else you seem to need females in the female's single sex spaces for.

Please don't make assumptions, I don't use female's single sex spaces.

Depends what the boys think. If they object, then personally I don't think they should.

And there's the rub. Trans men shouldn't use women's spaces in case it upsets the women and trans men shouldn't use men's spaces in case it upsets the men.

[quote jj1968]@Winesalot

As is your reliance on female's for security and whatever else you seem to need females in the female's single sex spaces for.

Please don't make assumptions, I don't use female's single sex spaces.[/quote]
Fair enough. You certainly advocate free usage of them for whatever male people feel the need for them though.

You're attracted to who you're attracted though, whether gay, straight, trans etc

I thought trans was an identity not a sexuality

@Quaagars

You should probably check out how many TRAs think that exclusive same sex attraction is bigoted and that lesbians should accept male people in their dating pool

You're attracted to who you're attracted though, whether gay, straight, trans etc.
You've always the right to say no.
Even if your reason is because someone is trans.
Some will be OK with dating trans women
Some won't
Everyone's different.

I agree with this, but is it fair to be called transphobic, bigoted and hateful if I don't want to have sex with a trans man? Because to me this is the issue, some people are fine with it, great crack on, some people aren't and are harassed and called disgusting names because of it.

So you believe that female sexed people should have the right to undress and shower in a communal changing room with teenage boys do you?

Male people can make their own decisions about what male people can handle in terms of mixed spaces.

This is about female people who can't access mixed sex spaces and don't want to. And about male people insisting that female people cannot have this because male needs are more important.

To the poster who has never been assaulted in a toilet: I'm very happy for you, that's wonderful. You might like to look at the statistics on the very high percentages of female assaults which show something like 90% occurred in mixed sex spaces. Also add: have you been lucky enough never to have been harassed, called after or otherwise made uncomfortable by sexual harassment or intimidation from males? Because the line for females is just a little higher than actual rape.

You're attracted to who you're attracted though, whether gay, straight, trans etc.
You've always the right to say no.

Let's see how well that often goes, shall we?

"Cotton Ceiling" evidence thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3294339-cotton-ceiling-evidence-thread

And there's the rub. Trans men shouldn't use women's spaces in case it upsets the women and trans men shouldn't use men's spaces in case it upsets the men.

Third spaces are the best solution then, aren't they?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I don't get it. There are so many parallels with the homophobic hate of the 80s. Don't let gays near my kids etc.

No there aren't. You should probably check out how many TRAs think that exclusive same sex attraction is bigoted and that lesbians should accept male people in their dating pool.

I don't know a single trans person who thinks this. Like much of this debate it's a complete straw man argument based on scouring the internet to find a random trans person saying something you don't like and then declaring it trans ideology. It's like claiming it is feminist ideology to want to cut up men and force them into servitude because it says so in the scum manifesto so all feminists must think that.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

And there's the rub. Trans men shouldn't use women's spaces in case it upsets the women and trans men shouldn't use men's spaces in case it upsets the men.

Third spaces are the best solution then, aren't they?

Third spaces don't exist.

But they could. If only transactivists wanted them to.

@Ladyporter

I don't get it. There are so many parallels with the homophobic hate of the 80s. Don't let gays near my kids etc. If someone is going to assault me they are very unlikely to do it in the ladies bog are they? Come on. I've been sexually abused and raped. Those men did not need to pretend to be women to do that to me, neither did they need to enter any spaces that were for women only. Much easier to do it anywhere else actually. I know trans women and they have had really difficult lives. Lives where they are confused, bullied, not accepted by family and peers. When Ive travelled in France and Denmark and probably other places, I've used facilities that are for both sexes. Do those countries have higher rates of sexual assault? Unlikely.

I'm sure your not naive enough to think this is the whole issue. What a disingenuous post.

Like much of this debate it's a complete straw man argument based on scouring the internet

jj you've been shown the evidence many times, many women have told you, lesbians have told you their personal experiences many times on many threads.

Your not wanting to believe it and not having direct experience of it does not make that particular bit of reality go away.

And there's the rub. Trans men shouldn't use women's spaces in case it upsets the women and trans men shouldn't use men's spaces in case it upsets the men.

So, campaign for third spaces.... Considering many people would use them from both sexes for different reasons, it would not be 'othering'. Women would use them if they did not have a need to use a female only facility (for instance, if I was not experiencing a mega flood period day, I might use them). It would give plenty of options while still maintaining the female only single sex spaces.

Or .... the mens can be become mixed sex with the urinals removed or put into a space and leave the females alone instead of the current move to eliminate the females and make them single sex.

See, with discussion and campaigning. There are other options to be explored. There simply has to be the will.

I don't know a single trans person who thinks this. Like much of this debate it's a complete straw man argument based on scouring the internet to find a random trans person saying something you don't like and then declaring it trans ideology. It's like claiming it is feminist ideology to want to cut up men and force them into servitude because it says so in the scum manifesto so all feminists must think that.

No it isn't. I know women who've experienced this pressure. There are women on MN who have experienced it. Your gaslighting notwithstanding. There's a whole thread of examples I've posted, it's not exhaustive. There are TRA videos, articles about it.

You might like to look at the statistics on the very high percentages of female assaults which show something like 90% occurred in mixed sex spaces.

There are no statistics. There was a story in the Sunday Times based on a few FOI requests but nothing resembling formal statistics and the paper didn't present the data.

So, campaign for third spaces....

As has been said though, they don't exist right now so where do people go in the meantime?

No data's ever good enough jj. Yes, I know.

That bit of reality isn't going away either.

www.gettheloutuk.com/blog/category/research.html

www.autostraddle.com/how-to-have-trans-woman-lesbian-sex-with-a-penis-414839/

terfisaslur.com/cotton-ceiling/

" I don't know a single trans person who thinks this. Like much of this debate it's a complete straw man argument based on scouring the internet to find a random trans person saying something you don't like and then declaring it trans ideology. It's like claiming it is feminist ideology to want to cut up men and force them into servitude because it says so in the scum manifesto so all feminists must think that.**

Wow..........!!!

Unfortunately no scouring of the Internet needed to show that like all other males transwomen present a danger to women.
If however, you have evidence to the contrary happy to hear it?

Considering many people would use them from both sexes for different reasons, it would not be 'othering'.

Most people would go to their sexed toilets and have no "need" to go to the "third space" so I can see the argument that trans people would feel exposed and vulnerable to harassment if they were the only ones who really used it.

@MichelleofzeResistance

Like much of this debate it's a complete straw man argument based on scouring the internet

jj you've been shown the evidence many times, many women have told you, lesbians have told you their personal experiences many times on many threads.

Your not wanting to believe it and not having direct experience of it does not make that particular bit of reality go away.

No they haven't and all the lesbians I know think it's complete nonsense. Perhaps you can point to an example of a trans activist organisation saying this? Should be easy enough if it's mainstream trans ideology.

As has been said though, they don't exist right now so where do people go in the meantime?

I'm pretty sure in most public buildings a third space would be provided on request, it often is in schools for example staff loos. Plus, unlike females who can't use mixed sex spaces, there are the sex based spaces still available.

I don't know a single trans person who thinks this. Like much of this debate it's a complete straw man argument based on scouring the internet to find a random trans person saying something you don't like and then declaring it trans ideology.

So, why then is LGB Alliance considered a hate group by so many people? All they are advocating is focusing on same sex issues. You have just said, I don't know a single trans person who thinks this..