That women should not be banned from Social Media for asking the question ( Thread 4)

[Langrycleg]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

jj generally ignores my questions seeking clarification of their views. I take this to mean they don't know or don't want to say because the conclusion would be unpalatable or contradict what they've said before.

I wonder how those girls would feel if someone who looked like Buck Angel had walked into the changing room? It's possible the person they saw with a towel wrapped round their waist was a trans man or intersex. You'd support that wouldn't you?

Nice that you use Buck as a bogeyman. I believe that Buck has also acknowledged that transmen after testosterone treatment can cause distress on women and girls just in the same way as males presenting as women and girls.

So, excellent choice in bringing up Buck. I know that you like to discount anything they say because they don't seem to be the 'right' sort of trans spokesperson.

I can guess that one person you do think of as an excellent trans spokesperson is the one you linked us to on the other thread. Who sexually harassed Helen Staniland and seemed quite happy to celebrate that harassment.

But the main reason third spaces haven't yet seriously been campaigned for, lets be honest, is because people born male who do not want to use male toilets and facilities do not want third spaces. They want to use female people's spaces, with females.

There are several reasons third spaces have not been campaigned for.

Firstly the custom and the law developed in which it was quite usual for trans people to use spaces inline with their gender and no-one seemed to care until a couple of years ago.

Secondly third spaces would force people to out themselves and could increase bullying and harassment of all gender nonconforming people - there's a space for you freaks now get out of here etc.

Thirdly, shared spaces, which could still be used by male born male identified men, would do little to reduce trans people's safety concerns.

And fourth, it's an unwinnable campaign. It would cost hundreds of billions. It might even be impossible in some older listed buildings. It took decades for disabled people to win accessible toilets and even now many places don't have them. Trans women represent somewhere between 0.1-0.3% of the population, a far lower proportion than disabled people, and they do not need specialist toilets. Most trans people don't want it, most non trans people don't care, there isn't a hope in hell of any campaign gaining the momentum to be successful enough to persuade the government to force local authorities, public bodies and the business sector to spend vast sums redesigning every public building in the country. Can you imagine the outcry if the NHS announced they were going to embark on a hugely expensive rebuilding project just so trans people could have special toilets? Do you really think this is anyone's priority outside of gender critical circles given the current circumstances?

Transwomen are male. Transwomen are just as likely to be sexual predators as other males. Males of all gender identities commit 99% of all sexual crimes. Females are allowed single sex spaces because in certain situations they are in danger when forced to mix with males.
jj1968 knows this but wants a particular subset of the male sex to be allowed to access female safe places because they want to and to hell with what women want.

@jj1968

Your obviously not aware jj that one of the principles of safeguarding is prevention. So allowing young males to access female changing rooms goes completely against safeguarding, for reasons that everybody knows, even when they pretend not too.

Sending a teenage trans girl who is visibly indistinguishable from any other girl to use the men's toilets and changing rooms is a significant safeguarding risk.

Apart from the fact they have a penis, and we all know what can happen to young girls when penis's are involved. Surely this is why you should be advocating for 3rd spaces. Keep the girls safe and the trans girls safe, win win for everyone no?

jj has also posted several times about how appearance seems to be important as to who is allowed into which space, which is something I find problematic. Someone who "looks like Buck Angel" as one example, someone who is "indistinguishable from any other girl" in another.
I don't think how masculine or feminine someone looks should be a factor in safeguarding or legislation.

Nice that you use Buck as a bogeyman. I believe that Buck has also acknowledged that transmen after testosterone treatment can cause distress on women and girls just in the same way as males presenting as women and girls.

So which spaces should they use then?

I believe that Buck has also acknowledged that transmen after testosterone treatment can cause distress on women and girls just in the same way as males presenting as women and girls

Oh, and care to hazard a guess as to WHY Buck Angel acknowledges there may be an issue with transmen after testosterone treatment using shared facilities...... anyone?

Could it be that Buck is a vocal activist that acknowledges very much that female socialisation (which they have experience of) is very much a thing? Could it be that Buck advocates for better health options for transmen because of what they have experienced?

@jj1968

Nice that you use Buck as a bogeyman. I believe that Buck has also acknowledged that transmen after testosterone treatment can cause distress on women and girls just in the same way as males presenting as women and girls.

So which spaces should they use then?

Should they use? Third spaces sounds like a great idea. Glad you gave us the opportunity to mention it.

Secondly third spaces would force people to out themselves
No it wouldn't. Loads of people apparently don't care about whether they share spaces with opposite-sex people so they are likely to use the third spaces as not, aren't they?

Are you saying women would all choose to use single-sex spaces given the option of either that or mixed? If not, then using a 3rd space wouldn't say anything at all about someone's gender identity, would it?

@DeaconBoo

jj has also posted several times about how appearance seems to be important as to who is allowed into which space, which is something I find problematic. Someone who "looks like Buck Angel" as one example, someone who is "indistinguishable from any other girl" in another. I don't think how masculine or feminine someone looks should be a factor in safeguarding or legislation.

Neither do I but that's what would happen if leguslation such as a bathroom bill was introduced. People would be admitted to spaces depending on how masculine/feminine they look. Life would be made a living hell for anyone's whose physical sex is ambiguous which is one of the reasons I oppose it.

Should they use? Third spaces sounds like a great idea. Glad you gave us the opportunity to mention it.

Third spaces don't exist.

"Most women are fine using mixed sex spaces... unless they are given the option not to" isn't really arguing your case...

Thirdly, shared spaces, which could still be used by male born male identified men, would do little to reduce trans people's safety concerns.

This does not make sense. The 'male born' people who choose instead to use the females of the world as human protection keep telling us that men will come in and attack us regardless in our spaces.

So, you are now claiming that females facilities DO work in keeping attackers out?

Neither do I but that's what would happen if leguslation such as a bathroom bill was introduced.

Which legislation? Can you point me to the draft/wording you are referring to?

@jj1968

But the main reason third spaces haven't yet seriously been campaigned for, lets be honest, is because people born male who do not want to use male toilets and facilities do not want third spaces. They want to use female people's spaces, with females.

There are several reasons third spaces have not been campaigned for.

Firstly the custom and the law developed in which it was quite usual for trans people to use spaces inline with their gender and no-one seemed to care until a couple of years ago.

Secondly third spaces would force people to out themselves and could increase bullying and harassment of all gender nonconforming people - there's a space for you freaks now get out of here etc.

Thirdly, shared spaces, which could still be used by male born male identified men, would do little to reduce trans people's safety concerns.

And fourth, it's an unwinnable campaign. It would cost hundreds of billions. It might even be impossible in some older listed buildings. It took decades for disabled people to win accessible toilets and even now many places don't have them. Trans women represent somewhere between 0.1-0.3% of the population, a far lower proportion than disabled people, and they do not need specialist toilets. Most trans people don't want it, most non trans people don't care, there isn't a hope in hell of any campaign gaining the momentum to be successful enough to persuade the government to force local authorities, public bodies and the business sector to spend vast sums redesigning every public building in the country. Can you imagine the outcry if the NHS announced they were going to embark on a hugely expensive rebuilding project just so trans people could have special toilets? Do you really think this is anyone's priority outside of gender critical circles given the current circumstances?

It's still no, tho. You'll just have to think of something else.

You're trans, why don't you start a campaign for whatever it is you think you need. Instead of demanding women and girls put themselves at risk.

According to you, we will single-handedly be decimating the tourist industry, because of all the trans people in the world who refuse to come here due to our sex segregated loos. And, er, Joe Biden might well refuse to do trade deals with us unless we dismantle them immediately.

So it's not like there's not a lot of money or influence there, is it?

Sort it out.

@Winesalot

Which spaces should someone who looks like Buck Angel use today, not in some mythical future after a successful campaign to win third spaces ad they've all been built (which will take years btw the way, the DDA was introduced in 1990 and many publicly accessible buildings still do not have accessible toilets)?

@jj1968

Should they use? Third spaces sounds like a great idea. Glad you gave us the opportunity to mention it.

Third spaces don't exist.

And as many women on these threads have advised you for so long, over and over and over ... maybe join the campaign that IS up and running to get them established.

Keeping on repeating it as each time you do, you inadvertently point out that you are not prepared to accept them because it doesn't suit your agenda.

@Winesalot

I want to know what spaces trans people should use today not after I'm probably dead.

jj1968 doesn't want to campaign for third spaces because jj wants transwomen to get the validation they need by using female spaces and who cares what women want.

But surely you would be more comfortable in a third space yourself, jj, as a GNC male?

@DeaconBoo

Neither do I but that's what would happen if leguslation such as a bathroom bill was introduced.

Which legislation? Can you point me to the draft/wording you are referring to?

How on earth could it be anything else. Fair Play for Women have already called for shop assistants to ask to see the birth certificates of anyone whose physical sex cannot be easily established before they are allowed to use a changing room. I don't want to live in a world like that and I doubt many other people do. Even the people of North Carolina didn't, which is why the bathroom bill was eventually rescinded.

There are several reasons third spaces have not been campaigned for.

They are being campaigned for. Transsexual journalists/bloggers Miranda Yardley and Debbie Hayton head the campaign.

Firstly the custom and the law developed in which it was quite usual for trans people to use spaces inline with their gender and no-one seemed to care until a couple of years ago.

Again with the refusal to accept female no. There is a reason why female people have been pushed to put down boundaries, it wasn't something they randomly came up with one day.

Secondly third spaces would force people to out themselves and could increase bullying and harassment of all gender nonconforming people - there's a space for you freaks now get out of here etc.

Your choice of language implies what is often the real issue for third spaces, that TW do not want to be 'othered' from female people. However male bodied people are other from female people and it should not be the case that female rights are overturned because male people do not like those boundaries to their freedoms. Female people have rights too.

Gender neutral spaces would obviously be used by TW, TM, NB people and plenty of people such as those women such as Nicola Sturgeon who spend a great deal of time scolding females who want privacy and are delighted to be undressed in mixed sex spaces.

This is not a reason to force female people to suck up the challenges and discomfort of losing single sex spaces. Again: third space offers everyone two choices. Forcible commandeering of female only spaces excludes some females from any option. That's not an acceptable solution.

Thirdly, shared spaces, which could still be used by male born male identified men, would do little to reduce trans people's safety concerns.

Hang on you keep telling female people that there's no danger to male people in female spaces and nothing bad ever happens in mixed sex spaces. You can't have it both ways. Those gender neutral spaces have yet to be designed: design safe ones. Single rooms with basins. I'd suggest doing this for female people who need female only provisions and let male people turn the women's mixed sex and the females have a female only option for women who need it.... but we all know male people will never accept female people having boundaries or a space that they cannot access. Which is now why Hampstead Heath offers male people a choice of three ponds, women who can access mixed spaces a choice from two, and women who cannot access mixed sex spaces no pool at all.

Not exactly 'inclusive' or 'kind' or 'intersectional' really. In fact deeply sexist.

And fourth, it's an unwinnable campaign. It would cost hundreds of billions. It might even be impossible in some older listed buildings.

Nonsense. I was involved in the disability act (as it was) implementation. It's easy, the blueprint is there, the money will be there, as it was for accessible toilets. This is after all, the only inclusive solution. And we're talking about charities that have been able to try and change laws in the matter of a couple of years they have so much money and power; this would be a breeze. IF it was what those male led, male centric charities wanted.

Unless your main aim is that female people shut up, lose their rights and let male people do what they like.

It occurs to me that we have some transwomen who tell us that they pass fully.

These people generally feel so threatened by the idea of sharing the facilities of their sex class with other males (despite providing no evidence that they are in any more danger than any other vulnerable male group) that they need to use the ladies and claim to have been using them unnoticed for years.

One of the main issues that has brought this matter to most women's attention is the fact that very recently we are coming across significant numbers of very male looking transwomen, in fact some present fully male (at least on a part-time basis) or at most wear a skirt and some lipstick.

We have seen video evidence of a number of these people being very aggressive, have heard testimony on here about awful behaviour (the poor lady with her 6 yr old daughter in the toilets who were flashed at and yelled at by a male-bodied person who had decided he had the right to be in their space stuck in my mind).

Having seen the vast numbers of death threats and threats of extreme violence being visited on surprising women in society like JK for example, women have understandably got a bit worried because these people are suddenly demanding full and unfettered access at all women's spaces (including unusual ones like breastfeeding, menopause and endometriosis groups).

Now, if the passing tw are really women, you would expect them to have a bit of sympathy for us, understand women's worries and maybe even agree that male looking transwomen have no place to be in women's spaces. After all, we women look after each other don't we?

Indeed, you could even see them making an argument for keeping those large, strong male appearing transwomen out of female spaces altogether. This would also help to keep the door shut to predatory chancers who would welcome any chance to get a woman on her own in an enclosed space.

But amazingly - there is no such argument from these trans people. We are ordered to open our doors to anyone who chooses to identify as a woman at that moment with no option to question or challenge them.

So, in what way are transwomen women?

No evidence has been provided that transwomen are at any more risk of violence in men's toilets than any other vulnerable male group like teenagers or small camp men.

We urgently need to discuss this further as a nation as there are so many issues arising so no, I don't think women should be banned from social media for asking that question. Apart from the fact that in a democracy we should have the human right to freedom of speech (not that Amnesty support freedom of speech for many women any more...)

Most people's physical sex is blindingly obvious. This is only a problem because male people don't respect women.