To wonder how males are allowed to compete and win in female sports

[Bambambini]

NZ weight lifter Tracey Lebrechts has had her nationsl records broken and her place in the National team taken by a male Laurel Hubbard - previously Gavin. How is this fair and just why is this allowed?

www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/sport/other/nz-weightlifting-body-stands-decision-let-first-transgender-weightlifter-compete

FeliciaJollygoodfellow

"Hatred? Us? How very dare you?"

It's easy to tell when someone is using a situation to highlight 'an issue' because they actually hold anybody in that category in contempt. Deceive yourselves if you must.

I'm sorry but I don't see bigotry or hatred on here?
It is simply unfair for men to compete against women in sport.
Just because a man puts on a frock and changes his name he dosnt loose his strength and power. He will still out run out cycle out throw out lift etc.. etc.. any woman he is competing against. It's just not fair and I can't imagen a man would feel he has been fair and feel like he has truly competed and won like he would had he been competing against another man.

*trans

I honestly don't think it's a bigotry issue I have twins boy and a girl, she is older and more outgoing, when they were under 5 speed and strength equal but after that boy is much stronger and taller it's biology pure and simple!

Don't worry just being your boys and girls up to respect everyone's feelings and aspirations as long as those don't trample on others toes.

There are a minority or fuckwits be they men/women/trans/whoever that give the majority a bad name.

However this specific idea that trans men should be competing in women's sports and so excluding women boils my piss.

I don't think anyone needs helping out here they just have the temerity to disagree with you petal.

I think when / if we get to the point where most of the records for women's sport are being set by MTFT they will amend the rules so that MTFT have to compete in a separate category.

It's easy to tell when someone is using a situation to highlight 'an issue' because they actually hold anybody in that category in contempt. Deceive yourselves if you must.

And this is the nub. How do trans activists explain that women who fought against discrimination in different forms for years suddenly and magically became bigots? I marched against the Criminal Justice Bill because of offenders, the awful Section 28 because of gay people, supported immigration, shelters for women and homeless men. I supported men of colour against the shocking behaviour of the police in the 80s. Even though none of those groups were me. I support trans people to live their lives. There is no hatred here.

What there is is a realisation that if we don't push back, one day my child will need a cell-mate, or shelter worker, or gynecologist, or rape counselor, or sports team, or sexual partner, or midwife and she might want that person or people to be chosen based on sex. And she won't have that choice because gender (made up shit) has been deemed to be more important. None of the trans people I know think that way. But that's the flow.

There's an interesting contrast between the issue of transwomen in sport and genuine issues of equality and human rights - namely, "is it a zero sum game?" If a country has a humane policy towards immigrants, everyone benefits - the country has its culture and economy enriched, without taking away from the existing culture. If a country has a fair policy on racial equality, everyone benefits - people get a fair chance at employment, education, housing. If a country has an equal marriage policy, everyone benefits - everyone gets to have the type of partnership of their choice. Because it's not zero sum. No one takes stuff away from one group to give to another.

But with transwomen in sport, it is zero sum. Allow people with the musculo-skeletal advantages testosterone brings to compete against women, and the women will lose. There will be no more female records. No more women on the winner's podium. We might as well all pack up and go home.

Blah blah blah Trifle

You take up a lot of thread space for somebody who does not actually say anything.

You had the front to name call on this thread yet will not post the bigotry or hate comments to back it up.
That to me is straight up goadyly

It is heavily implied in the sneering comments and extrapolations from this situation (which is unfortunate) into the biology v psychology debates which inevitably spring up whenever anyone says 'trams'.

But biology is what makes men, in general, stronger and faster. Biology IS important.

I think when / if we get to the point where most of the records for women's sport are being set by MTFT they will amend the rules so that MTFT have to compete in a separate category.

I hope I'm mis-interpreting your thought process here but it sounds like your saying "don't worry, it will get sorted when it gets that bad".

You know, I started off from a pretty TERFy position. But I'm coming round on things like the bathroom issue, because yeah, as people say there are still laws in place to deter anyone being threatening/lewd regardless of which gender they are.

But this whole sport thing is actually bringing in rules that disadvantage people born as women. How can that be right?

SookiesSocks: And "blah blah blah" is measured commentary, is it? I am as entitled as anyone to say what I think, so I did.

jellyfrizz:

To this specific situation, yes. I would have no problem with a comment like that of Tinkly, above, which deals with the issue of unfairness in competitive sports, whilst offering respect to those who are forced to transition.

From the Journal Of Physiology

Title: A cellular memory mechanism aids overload hypertrophy in muscle long after an episodic exposure to anabolic steroids
Key points:
• Training studio folklore suggests that previous strength training, with or without the use of anabolic steroids facilitates re-acquisition of muscle mass even after long intervening periods of inactivity. This ‘muscle memory’ has previously been attributed to motor learning, but our data suggest the existence of a cellular memory residing in the muscle fibres themselves.
• Muscle fibres have multiple nuclei, and the number of nuclei increases when muscle mass increases.
• When mice were briefly treated with steroids the muscle mass and number of nuclei increased. The drug was subsequently withdrawn for 3 months and the muscle mass returned to normal, but the excess cell nuclei persisted. When such muscles were subjected to overload they grew by 30% over 6 days while controls grew insignificantly.
• Our data suggest that previous strength training might be beneficial later in life, and that a brief exposure to anabolic steroids might have long lasting performance-enhancing effects.

Yes Trifle you are very entitled.

SookiesSocks:

That isn't a magic bullet, you know. I CAN in fact post on this forum and I CAN in fact disagree with you, perfectly reasonably, without being "entitled" in the sense in which you use the word.

I think when / if we get to the point where most of the records for women's sport are being set by MTFT they will amend the rules so that MTFT have to compete in a separate category.

I'm sure that will be a huge comfort to all the athletes that trained, peaked and retired from their sport during the years of trying to clear this ridiculous and incomprehensible mess up. Its happening right now, women are being robbed of qualifying and placing in their sport by trans women they cannot hope to beat. This will increase.

You know, I started off from a pretty TERFy position. But I'm coming round on things like the bathroom issue, because yeah, as people say there are still laws in place to deter anyone being threatening/lewd regardless of which gender they are.
Do you think the law is working in deterring men from sexually abusing women tinkly?
Personally in a country where the conviction rate for reported rapes is around 5% (and most women don't even bother reporting) I don't really want to rely on the law to protect vulnerable women.
We have CRB checks for people working with children to prevent crime against children and I've never heard anyone say it's unfair and we should rely on the law alone to protect children.
As a society we accept the inconvenience of safeguarding measures for vulnerable people, except when those vulnerable people are women.

You havent disagreed Trifle

You have been goady from the start.
Then you have proceeded to back up your goady first post by name calling posters.
Who you then refuse to point out when asked to. Then you name call a bit more while still refusing to post evidence of the bigoted trans hate you say there is.

Your goal on this thread is to get it shut down. Thats it.
You have no opinion only an agenda.

You're not discussing or joining the debate though trifle, just telling everyone what big meanies they are. I think I will ignore you and hope others do the same because you're derailing the thread.