To wonder how males are allowed to compete and win in female sports

[Bambambini]

NZ weight lifter Tracey Lebrechts has had her nationsl records broken and her place in the National team taken by a male Laurel Hubbard - previously Gavin. How is this fair and just why is this allowed?

www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/sport/other/nz-weightlifting-body-stands-decision-let-first-transgender-weightlifter-compete

Just looked it up. Yes, 8 male players. There's reports of some of them not getting to play because they had not even fucking had surgery!

There's plenty enough men to push almost all women out of professional sports, once they realize they can do this.

It is not just about fame, it is about money.

I think it is very, very, very naive to believe that only males who are genuinely dysphoric will transition, or that only males who were in professional sports before transitioning will get into women's sports.

The facts are thus: If artificial hormones and surgery are the condition to competing against women and winning the prizes there, and the hormones and surgery are paid for by the NHS or similar, then lots of males will do this.

If surgery is not a condition anymore, then we can be sure that loads and loads and loads of males will "transition", and there will be no women's sports anymore.

I don't think it's a question of encouragement in Iran. I think it's more a question of avoiding execution for being gay.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-36399393

A large portion of Iranian trans-women are probably gay men

A large portion of all transwomen are certainly gay men.

Doesn't really matter if they're gay or autogynephiles or suffer from dysmorphia, they should not compete against women.

I don't think it's a question of encouragement in Iran. I think it's more a question of avoiding execution for being gay.

Perhaps I should have written "encouragement". But it matters little.

Other countries have plenty of gay men with internalized homophobia, too, and while the methods of coercion are more gentle, there are enough men who can be made to have surgery to end women's sports, I have no doubt about that.

And then there's the fact that those Iranian transwoman can, after getting established in professional sports, move to other countries and compete against women there.

hashtags that got pretty popular last year on twitter

Oh dear

I wouldnt go to hard on the Iranians to be honest. Forced gender conversions as a cure for being gay is something I think we can at least say is a bad thing? Surely?

It should come down to chromosomes. If you have xx then you compete in the women's event, if xy male event. Even if their testosterone is now suppressed I'm sure life long exposure to male hormones has develop brain pathways and bone structure etc which probably can't be undone.

The women with PCOS have a natural variation which makes them excel in their sport (good for them); as does the gymnasts with hypermobility, and the swimmers with Marfans. They olympics are there to highlight those that have natural ability and stand out.

Out of interest - how many people do this? Trans and take part in sport? Its fairly horrific for those affected but I wonder if claiming entire generations are affected is a bit of a hyperbole.

It was me who mentioned a generation being affected. I didn't say it just with regards to the invasion of women's sports but with regards to the trans juggernaut in general and all the areas it can and does disadvantage and harm girls, women, lesbians and homosexuals.

The reason I think it will take a generation for things to improve is because I think the thing that will put an end to the madness is when the kids that are being transed (who are currently minors or young adults) start sueing their doctors for having sterilized them, made them drug dependent and otherwise harmed them in embracing a political ideology that is in direct conflict with the Hippocratic oath and medical ethics in general.

Doyouwantabrew - actually I have been on Mumsnet for a couple of years now although post sparingly. Confronted with alternative views and you jump to conspiracy theories about journalists and 'stupid men' invading your discussion. Feel free to post anywhere else, but ignoring criticism of your ideology will not stifle that criticism.

rumblingDMexploitingbstds - it's not my criticism of this particular topic (in fact I actually agree with the common sentiment of transsexuals not been allowed to compete in their new genders sports), it's the lefts. Your second class citizens in your own movement; your only allies with the wider 'social justice' movement if your willing to prioritise the ability of transpeople to act completely as their new gender over the success of born female athletes. If not your transphobic problems.

LGBT and race takes priority in today's left wing movement, feminism is only acceptable if it is delivered by black lesbians. White, middle class, university educated, middle age women (the average MN feminist) are an embarrassment to the virtueisation of alleged victimisation that many on the left are pushing. Your not the only group to be left behind, white gay men has experienced similar deprioritsation and sometimes outright hostility.

See any discussion on feminism and intersectionality including the many that have occurred on this very site.

Agree Newmanwannabe - it's doping, pure and simple and everyone knows it.

The reason it can happen is the ideological mantra "transwomen are women".

There are plenty of people who know that is a load of shit and that no one really changes sex, but they are willing to repeat the mantra because it is destructive of women's rights and either they don't give a shiny one about women's rights or they are quite happy to see them erased in favour of bonus privileges for men. Make no mistake, trans ideology is deeply conservative and regressive - homophobes and misogynists embrace it for that reason, not because they actually believe in it. Liberals embrace it because they are so desperate to be open minded their brains have fallen out (and their empathy gets lost amongst their virtue signaling and right on-ness). If all these wankers really cared about gender dysphoric people they would be able to be honest about the mental health issues, the obsessive fetishes, the narcissism, the internalized lesbophobia and homophobia, etc that are evident in the population. They would also be honest about the long term harms of the medicalization and the surgery.

As a male, this is utter bollocks and openly supporting unlevel playing fields. I'm astounded and shocked.

What next, men competing in boxing or martial arts? Women's football, rugby?

Worlds gone mad.

Actually Rale I do agree with some of your points in your last post.

Because they can boopsy
Because that win will be protected and nobody can critise so they will be praised and given status, called winners and the best in their field.

Its all ego which is something some men thrive on.
Fallon Fox did not even rank as a male cage fighter but once he fought as a women he became elite and unbeatable (one women did actually knock him out) and was praised by those around him.
Matt Mitrione voiced that Fallon was a man and had no place in beating up women, he called him sick. Matt was then suspended from his job and heavly fined.

SeriousSteve its already happening. See my above post.

Beach totally agree with your whole post.

It's women at the bottom of the pile again

Two points Rale:

Firstly feminism / women's rights are not identity politics but class politics.

Secondly, telling women to STFU because they are white and middle class is getting old. White middle class women are rape victims, domestic violence victims, victims of CSA, and victims of male violence and women hating in general. Misogynists hate us and want to shut our voices down because our whiteness and our middle classness give us a bit of a chance at having a voice for girls and women. Its so obvious and got boring in about 1978.

vestal re East German women who 'doped' , many of them didn't even know what they were being given. They were victims of the system. I believe many Iranian men are as well. Though that doesn't help the women who lose out of course.
Eventually it will get to the stage where a) women will have to boycott women's events and b)sponsors will stop sponsoring them. Lets be honest, part of the draw for womens sports is seeing sexually attractive women who attract straight males. They won't be interested in watching transwomen.

Sorry Sookie, I posted prior to RTFT, was so outraged. You're totally right.

No need for sorry Steve i understand your outrage.

rale124 is a plopper

Please dont make that board game like Monopoly...takes ages and everyone hates it FACT

Oops apologies rale

I didnt see your posts

Too early in the morning for me...i shouldnt be allowed on mumsnet til 10am