Misandry and Mumsnet

[estrogone]

Is it acceptable to hate on men openly without apology? Would it be ok of it were the other way round.

As a woman and mother of sons, the attitudes and comments on MN border on hate speech and I think Mumsnet HQ should do something about it.

Is this really how we want to balance the scales?

E: spelling

But those that do not benefit from the chilling effect on women's agency of those that do.

In any case, rime is not the only marker of male misconduct or their abuse, exploitation and subjugation of women.

Most of that goes on in the home.

If you're a man and you're not taking an active role in challenging men who don't treat women like human beings, you are complicit and culpable.

That is the vast majority of men, and the justification for women condemning the sex in general terms.

It doesn't matter what men are or aren't capable of. What matters is women's perception of men. It might be right It might be wrong. The point is it's worth knowing.

...and yes, I think many men will find it easiest to avoid marriage and children all together (as I'm sure many women do) but others will think "I really want a family with a woman involved so now I know if I want that to be happy on both sides I'll need to do X, Y and Z for decades and accept that once the kids are grow up I'll be a drag on her." They will go into it prepared.

The point is knowing this stuff up front, not finding out when it's too late.

...and this applies equally to men and women.

Stop with the passive aggression. Many women DO want relationships with loving, supportive and respectful men. Women don’t go into relationships thinking their partners will be selfish, lazy and disrespectful further down the line.

Many women would rather have a family with a loving, caring, equal partner than on their own. And many women do have relationships with such men.

On the whole women are not saying they don’t want to live with men. They’re saying that many of the men they come across are disappointing. After living with such men and then experiencing additional relationships after these relationships end with other disappointing men they don’t want to keep trying. Because the loving, caring respectful ones tend to be in mutually supportive, respectful relationships already and these relationships are much less likely to break down and the men come on the market.

If you’re a man that wants all the benefits of a single life combined with all the benefits of married life then many women these days don’t want you. If you want a nanny/housekeeper/financial support /sexually available person they also don’t want you.

If you’re an adult who can look after yourself, wants a reciprocal relationship, likes to have fun, is financially solvent then you’ll more than likely find a woman that would be delighted to be with you. And I think those men are also going to want to be in a relationship with a woman too because they’re grown ups.

He would in my circle. What circle are you thinking of?

Wow maths really isn’t your strong suit. You must be living in abject terror if you believe one in 14 men is a violent offender?!

last year 47,000 prosecutions for violent offences. Mostly men. But against a male population of 30 million and allowing for repeat convictions that’s between 1 and 2 in 1,000.

Still too many. But egads it’s way south even of the 1% touted around

Women's perception of men is based on what men indicate themselves capable of (or willing for) so of course it's important.
Women haven't just decided to invent a list of fake issues with their hive mind.
The things you read about are individual women's experiences, replicated enough times to demonstrate a pattern. If their experiences had been different so would the pattern.
If men demonstrate themselves capable and willing to be hands on fathers, share domestic duties etc, women's perceptions of them will change.
If women percieve their partners to have pulled their weight and been decent husbands and fathers, they are more likely to still love and want to be with them, even if they do become a drag later on.

I haven’t observed a lot of misandry. But I do see a lot of comments which imply that women can never be perpetrators, must always be victims. If a woman does a bad thing she must have been forced into it by a man. I hate this idea that women aren’t agents of our own destiny, that we are weak little babies. I absolutely believe women can be cruel, and nasty, and violent of their own volition. I believe women can abuse, and men can be victims. Not statistically as often but it’s not an impossibility.

If you’re an adult who can look after yourself, wants a reciprocal relationship, likes to have fun, is financially solvent then you’ll more than likely find a woman that would be delighted to be with you. And I think those men are also going to want to be in a relationship with a woman too because they’re grown ups.

Totally agree I am absolutely blessed to have a husband who does and has the above, as do I, and because he has daughters and a son and had a very dysfunctional and abusive father, he is not blind to what insecure abusive men inflict on women and brings up our children with this understanding.

Good quality men generally don’t go on MN to berate women. Men who come on MN to berate women do so because they lack these characteristics and they feel insecure about how they are perceived because of that lacking, with that comes their attempts to control women and more particularly how they are viewed by women without making any attempt to fix these inadequacies within themself.

It is very common for teenage girls to experience these situations from outwardly 'normal' men.

I think we see teenaged and adolescent girls as more adult than their male peers.

Jokes about adult men being attracted to underage girls were acceptable for family sitcoms in the 80s and 90s.

Soz, misread your would as wouldn't

It is true that women can be violent, it is true they can be abusers but I was watching a programme on domestic violence where they interviewed A and E consultants and the sheer scale of violence commited on women by their partners (broken bones, teeth knocked out, serious serious injuries) was just not something that was replicated in both directions between the sexes.

The sheer scale of child abuse committed by women is so much lesser (though as you say absolutely it does happen and it harms as much when it does) but the numbers are much much lower.

The sheer amount of gender based violence and sexual violence committed against women by men.

The numbers of femicide is not replicate by women killing their partners.

The family annihilation is predominantly carried out by men.

So called “honour” killing is done by men to women.

These things cannot be viewed as being equal. They just are not.

I think it's more likely they ignore it and carry on so as to not rock the boat

Totally agree. In my previous job I’ve witnessed this first hand. I worked with both men and women criminals and though some on here might find it hard to believe, the men had more respect for me as a women than the women did.

"For instance, we actually never had to teach our sons to walk their female friends home from the pub if it was late,"

You fully admit here that your son’s realise female's are at risk walking on their own.

What might that risk be? Hmmmm could it be men??

Well great, the point is that more information and more accurate information is always a good thing.

If people read mumsnet and conclude that women really like men, really benefit from kids and marriage then everyone's happy. (And vice versa, obvs.)

Personally, I think any sane reader would come to the exact opposite conclusion but that's irrelevant, what matters is what women actually think, which wasn't available to men and is through mumsnet. Misandry or not doesn't matter - it's benefical.

@MickyMoonshine

So sorry about your mum.

With respect though, so what? Your anecdote doesn't stand up against the weight of hard evidence that shows the vast majority of the worst crimes committed in our society are committed by men. I mean, its not even close, is it? 90% of violent crimes are committed by men. Obviously you will have met women who are unpleasant. If you work in the CJS you will no doubt have encountered some of the worst women. However that makes absolutely no difference to the facts of which sex is objectively more dangerous.

Hi @estrogone and thanks for your comments. We do think there’s an important distinction between talking critically about male behaviour including patterns of abuse or misogyny and attacking someone simply because they’re a man.

Mumsnet has always given women quite a lot of room to talk frankly about their experiences, and inevitably some of those conversations are angry or uncomfortable to read. We don’t think the answer is to sanitise them, or to expect women to add NAMALT every time they talk about something that’s happened to them. It’s not a free pass to have a pop at individual posters, and we’re not going to defend a horrible comment simply because the person on the receiving end happens to be male.

There are also quite a few different views being expressed on this thread, including from women who agree with you that some generalisations about men go too far. We think that’s probably healthier than MNHQ trying to decide what everyone is allowed to think about men or women as a whole.

We think it's also worth mentioning that neither misogyny or misandry is currently a hate crime in UK law...

If you see individual posts that you think cross the line, please report them and we’ll take a look.

Thank you ❤️

You're absolutely right! I care about my son and daughter equally, and sexism is wrong.
Then some of them moan they can't find decent men.

Nobody is suggesting you don’t love your son and daughter equally if you call out men’s poor behaviour.

Interesting that you’re blaming women recognising men’s poor behaviour as to why they can’t find a ‘decent man’ instead of suggesting men behave decently.

I was responding to @Velvian who said men being sexually attracted to 14 year old girls wasn't viewed as paedophilia the same as it was if they were sexually attracted to 14 year old boys. I was disagreeing with that sentiment.

With respect I dont agree. When younger I've been at the sharp end of poor male behaviour inc. multiple sexual assaults and domestic violence. However, my DH is a good man, husband and father and I have few complaints.
I choose not to assume all men are awful even after experiencing domestic abuse and sexual assault. This doesn't mean I choose not to rock the boat, it means I'm happy in my marriage/relationships with men in general and I judge everyone irrespective of sex individually.

Honestly I am not sure what you are saying here.

There was sexual abuse from a male in my family growing up, my FIL was a consistent marriage long violent abuser of his wife.

I married a great man and given the nature of my work I work with many men I admire greatly and I have good male friends but knowing really great men does not erase the problem of the pattern of distinctly male pattern violence and abuse that is extremely widespread and is not replicated by any meaningfully evidenced way in women or believed to be except in people who are deeply in denial or very misogynistic who it benefits being wilfully blind about the issue.

Not really sure of the relevance of any of that, all you're saying is that men really are shit it's not just a perception which I haven't disputed at all, nor does it matter.

they are more likely to still love and want to be with them, even if they do become a drag later on.

Which is great for people who don't mind being a drag on someone. But others may prefer never to create that position in the first place. The critical thing is the information than men are a drag on women once any kids have gone. It's good that message is spelled out whatever people do with it.