The invasion continues - Thread No.4

[ChimChimeny]

Following the previous (2? 3?) Threads

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4492641-The-Invasion-Has-Stalled

I think we're going to have to put our big boys' pants on and bail Europe out again

Speaking as an American ?

I really despise Johnson but he is right that we can implement a no fly zone. It will just escalate this conflict out of all proportions. I really despair for the Ukrainians but we cannot destroy the entire world. The reality of the situation is that if we put military forces in the air, on the ground or even out at sea Ukraine will be just a footnote in the following conflict.

Who is the Ukrainian guy speaking now to the eu on sky news?

@CaveMum

Why have some military aircraft got their detectors on and some not?

@FatFucker depends on what they are doing - sometimes you want to be seen and sometimes you don't

Yeah I get that but what I mean Isidro example, why have the AAR tanker as showing, but what it was refuelling as hidden?

To worry the Russian la as to what it was refuelling?

Also that weird hexagonal shape on flight radar, not sure what the final conclusion was to what it was. (Excuse the grammar). But why "show" it!!

Zelenskys speech brought me to tears. I so desperately want us to do more for them

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

If Finland join does that mean Putin will attack? He threatened, didn't he?

I had no idea how close Helsinki is to St Petersburg. There is a lot of Russia to defend, so if there was trouble on two borders, it could get very difficult.

Am a bit ashamed of my geography skills, am learning a lot...

Feels impossible to predict if Putin will attack Finland if we join NATO, he threatened it but war on two fronts seems a step too far.

They're a couple hundred miles apart. There are some Russians, especially dual nationals, fleeing Russia on the train to Helsinki. I just hope no one treats them badly for being Russian, already seen one sign at a protest in Finland demanding all Russians be kicked out of Finland :(

@HeadPain

Who is the Ukrainian guy speaking now to the eu on sky news?

Zelensky.

@MarshaBradyo

Why personalize the question? What are your motivations for doing so?

Er just interest

People are very vocal re West involvement so I’m interested in where they draw the line, if anywhere

I did read Putin’s speech out of interest and I see he feels very provoked by NATO and West. But I do not think his actions are justified. I find clarity useful so asked you and others what you thought.

I am surprised at people blaming NATO for this. It looks to me the other way, we’ve not done enough to combat Russian aggression. We’ve underestimated Russia, more worried about China etc. We’ve allowed Russian influence into our countries (and Western ones in theirs, I know) and cut our militaries right down. We’ve done nothing when British citizens have been killed by their poison in our own country. We explicitly said we were not putting troops in Ukraine if Russia invaded. But by invading Ukraine and threading Sweden and Finland Putin has turned NATO into a much stronger force, Germany has increased its military spending and famously neutral countries like Switzerland and Sweden are supplying weapons and sanctions to Ukraine.

I’m not saying the West is perfect. Everybody knows the shit we’ve caused in the Middle East. You only have to go on Netflix to find American documentaries slating their own government’s involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan but it is very worrying that people are justifying Putin invading a country and threatening neutral peaceful countries.

it is very worrying that people are justifying Putin invading a country and threatening neutral peaceful countries

Who is justifying it? Do you mean on this thread, because I don't think anyone has.

'Who is the Ukrainian guy speaking now to the eu on sky news?'

'Zelensky'

Surely she meant Ruslan Stevanchuck? Think most can recognise Zelenskyy these days.

@vera99

I really despise Johnson but he is right that we can implement a no fly zone. It will just escalate this conflict out of all proportions. I really despair for the Ukrainians but we cannot destroy the entire world. The reality of the situation is that if we put military forces in the air, on the ground or even out at sea Ukraine will be just a footnote in the following conflict.

Agree Vera99 I have every sympathy with her, it's desperate times but she is basically asking U.K. to effectively start WWIII. A no fly zone would be playing straight into Putin's hands. Cool heads are required, the powers that be can't let emotions take over (which is fortunate in our case as I'm not sure Johnson is blessed in that department!).

@RedToothBrush - thank you for your post at 11.38am. That captures pretty much all of my thinking too.

@JaniieJones

'Who is the Ukrainian guy speaking now to the eu on sky news?'

'Zelensky'

Surely she meant Ruslan Stevanchuck? Think most can recognise Zelenskyy these days.

Iwas not watching Skt tbh, I was just assuming that is who they meant, apologies if I assumed wrongly!

Sky...

It is pretty clear to me that after the Liz Truss shambles Johnson has been clearly briefed and is reading very much from script. Every word matters. He referred in his opening speech continuously to Putin and not Russia.

@FatFucker I guess sometimes it comes down to a show of strength - ie we don't care that you know we are here because we know there's nothing you can do about it. Obviously both sides will be fully aware of the whereabouts of "enemy" aircraft, unless they're using stealth aircraft!

Lewis Goodall @lewis_goodall

NEW: Hungarian Foreign Minister says that his government is supporting an initiative by eastern EU countries to start membership talks with Ukraine: “Hungary backs this initiative and we urge Brussels to put the issue on the agenda.”

[quote HelpMeHiveMind]@notimagain that's an interesting (but sad) theory. I was very much of the "he's goading NATO" frame of mind, but you could be onto something that there's actually no need for planes etc as they've already 'won' in that area and our propaganda in the West just isn't reporting that fact. But then....why need a convoy at all? [/quote]
I agree that there’s no doubt element of under reporting of Russian success.

Why a convoy?

Advancing Front line troops don’t carry everything they need for a whole campaign when they move forward on day one, they need water, food, ammunition, food moving up to them from the rear echelons as they move forward….so there’s always stuff being moved up from the rear.

Failure to do that in the past has often led to some spectacular campaign failures.

According to one Tory councillor he's actually on the front line

Surely Mark 'Je ne suis pas' Francois should be with him then?

Same for me too @RedToothBrush

One of the problems with Johnson is that he is lazy and others do the work for him. As soon as he's not scripted he becomes a bumbling embarrassment rather than a statesman.

Pippa Crerar @PippaCrerar

NEW: No 10 confirms that Ukraine refugee visa scheme has now been extended to wider family.

Home Sec Priti Patel to announce that adult parents, grandparents, children over 18 and siblings of those settled in the UK will be permitted entry.

Good. About time this was clarified.

@WeAreTheHeroes

Same for me too *@RedToothBrush*

One of the problems with Johnson is that he is lazy and others do the work for him. As soon as he's not scripted he becomes a bumbling embarrassment rather than a statesman.

Yes, he lacks the sustained focus to push through an agenda or objective.

A chilling analysis from an expert in the field .

"Hill spent many years studying history, and in our conversation, she repeatedly traced how long arcs and trends of European history are converging on Ukraine right now. We are already, she said, in the middle of a third World War, whether we’ve fully grasped it or not."

www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/28/world-war-iii-already-there-00012340

Sadly, I agree with you Vera and Stormzy. But did the West not agree to protect Ukraine when it gave up its nuclear weapons? Maybe my understanding is too simplistic, but I can understand the feeling of betrayal.