Or is this victim blaming?

Can’t they?! They can’t search people coming in the door?
Why not make a massive sign that says “don’t spike drinks!” And “if you think your mate is a rapist then tell the bouncer”
Do you seriously think that sign is needed to make women aware of drink spiking? Women are aware. That sign is a cop out, a shift in responsibility, and another case of victim blaming! The onus shouldn’t be on women to not get drugged!

I agree with you OP. @Feedingmybaby I liken it to locked doors. People lock their doors because it adds a layer of protection for your home. We wouldn't get pages and pages of angry people frothing about the police, insurance companies and anyone with a brain telling us to lock our doors to protect our homes so why do people get so upset about advice to protect ourselves.

We shouldn't have to lock our doors and we shouldn't have to avoid walking in the dark. But we do. It isn't sexism, misogyny or anything else. It's just common sense.

Sex normally.

They are there because they normally want sex.

If they then change their mind about that, they're perfectly entitled to for any reason they choose.

A decent man will accept this, a rapist won't and will rape her.

The woman in this scenario will still not have done anything wrong at all.

I don't think you understood my point. Don't we all advise our girls like this? But not see it as pre- victim blaming? Just good advice.
If they don't take the good advice, and the worst happens, is it their fault? No, it's the fault of the person who did it to them.

Do you honestly not warn your daughters along these lines?

If you do warn your daughters along these lines, it's not victim blaming is it?

I know life is just a series of choices that we make, each choice with a range of possible outcomes. Taking steps to minimize risk is a personal matter... with upsides and downsides. You go back to a hotel room with an unknown man, or for that matter stay in a relationship with a man who's waving red flags left right and centre, then you are taking on a higher level of risk than some others. It's not victim blaming I don't think. It's taking a risk adverse / risk accepting stance. That's real life.

It's separate to saying you are to blame for this. The rapist is always the one to blame.

Personally I find personal responsibility to be very, very key to how I see feminism.

Sex, obviously.

But maybe not anal sex
Or giving/receiving oral
Or anything between

Including completely changing her mind once she gets there.

Two things can be right at the same time.

Once a woman says No at any stage of an interaction, then consent is withdrawn or was never given in the first place. If the man proceeds it’s rape / sexual assault.

All women should be mindful of the situations they are putting themselves in. It shouldn’t be that way but it is.

This is what I teach my daughters. Be careful, be mindful, if you don’t want sex either be clear at the start or don’t get into a position where the situation might get away from you. No is always no, if you are assaulted it’s never your fault.

I don't have a daughter, but I did have a mum, and she drilled it into me to be careful when out , use my own judgment (which was sometimes lacking) when out.
Not because she would have blamed me if I was sexually assaulted, but simply because she didn't want me to get hurt.

Surely that's why people warn women to stay as safe as they can, they simply don't want them hurt.

Maybe because I am not a home and it enrages me that I am compared to an inanimate object that can be locked up.
Quite close to the logic of Islamists that women must be covered like a piece of meat.
Don't leave your jewellery out! 🙄

when a woman behaves in a reckless manner, she has more chance of coming to harm.
Literal victim blaming!?

How sober do you have to be to ensure that man in the car/hotel/bar/house with you is definitely not a rapist?

Same as if you cross the road without taking care, you have more chance of being hit by a car.
But a car would hit you by accident? A rapist rapes on purpose. Or are you implying that there are people driving around waiting for the opportunity to run someone over??

You deliberately miss the point.

I must've put myself in a fair few situations when young and under the influence of alcohol where you might be looking to point this particular finger at me, if I had been raped. But happily, none of the men around me were rapists, so that didn't happen to me.

I was however, sexually assaulted by a male relative at HOME, stone cold sober, where I 'should' have been completely safe.

It is always the attacker who is at fault, never the victim, no matter where they go or how much they've had to drink. It is the attacker's decision to attack/rape. I'm not sure why you can't see that.

On the contrary, I think they answered your points perfectly.

I can't imagine a London- or any city- where there are no women walking alone after dark because they are trying to reduce risk. The streets would be so unsafe and horrible with only men. We need all public spaces to be full of women.

I always said to my daughter ( and my son- they're not immune) "Whilst you should be able to go anywhere and be ok, that is not the way of the world. You have to take responsibility for your own safety " So,not to get staggering drunk and pass out somewhere etc

Why is this different? It’s exactly what your dreadful flawed analogy is saying women shouldn’t let it happen!

PP, you nor any woman no matter what is responsible for the man’s actions! Don’t let people like OP ever make you feel otherwise!

irked? You sound increasingly insufferable, I hope you never end up on a jury trial

If i walked out in front of a car - its my fault if i get knocked down.
If i go to a hotel room and say no and get raped - Its HIS fault.

STOP THIS STUPID NARRATIVE

no wonder women don't speak out and don't report assaults, you are victim blaming no matter how you frame it.
Of course women should take precautions to protect themselves but if they are assaulted its not their fault.

This thread should be reported. Boils my piss!!!!

I don’t think you understood my point. By saying that your daughter could “fail” to take your advice the victim blaming is already implied. It’s built in to the way we talk about this issue.

I’m not saying don’t warn your daughters, I’m saying be careful how we phrase things because even when we give safety advice like this it shifts the responsibly to the victim. But the risk is still never zero, no matter what we do. And if something awful happened god forbid then the implication is already there, you didn’t keep yourself safe enough. You didn’t follow the advice enough. You failed.

Out of curiosity OP, do you think that if a woman wears a short skirt and a revealing top when on a night out, that is also risky behaviour? The outfit is going to draw attention from men, whereas something more modest probably wouldn't, so is that also high risk behaviour? What about flirting with a stranger in a bar? Would that be risky as its giving him the impression you're interested when you might not be? Where would you draw the line in terms of when you would think 'why would you do that?' about a woman that has been raped?

The problem is women may consent to sex with that person.

Then the man takes that as carte blanche to do any type of sex she may not have consented to or bring their mates along to have a go. Are you seriously saying that you consent to "anything goes" if you go back to someone's hotel room? @Feedingmybaby

Luckily the judge in the RB case understood that women can change their minds at any time, even after they go to a man's room for sex, or to admire the view or to borrow a pencil, or any bloody reason.

But it’s not just about assault.

It’s about being lucky anytime we escape harm when we take any kind of risk.

If someone chooses to take drugs they’re lucky if no harm comes to them from it.

If someone chooses to get in the passenger seat of a drunk driver they’re lucky if they aren’t killed.

If someone chooses not to wear a seatbelt in a car that then crashes, they’re lucky if they survive.

If someone decides to take a walk across a frozen lake, falls in but thankfully gets rescued they’re lucky they didn’t drown.

If someone decides to go swimming at an Australian beach which is known for its dangerous waves, they get into danger but thankfully they are rescued by the Lifeguards, they are lucky they didn’t drown.

We all know how to risk assess and we choose what risks we take. Avoiding harm when you’ve done something knowingly risky is lucky.

When I went home with a stranger after a night out I had absolutely no idea what kind of man he was. I knew the risks that men pose to women and I chose to ignore it and just “hoped” he was one of the good ones. Im sure the fact I’d had some alcohol played a role in my decision as I wouldn’t make the same decision if I was sober). I put myself in a potentially very dangerous situation with absolutely nobody who could potentially rescue me from it, so yes, I consider myself very lucky that no harm came to me as a result.

A rape is ALWAYS the fault of the man and although women should be safe around men, we aren’t and everyone knows that.

To acknowledge that isn’t victim blaming.

We see countless threads on MN every day about the risks that men post to women when it comes to sexual assault, sexual violence, rape etc. Women know that men are a huge threat to our safety.

So as unfair as it may seem, we do have to risk assess how to keep ourselves as safe as can around men.

We risk assess all the time to avoid potentially dangerous situations and although it’s depressing that those assessments now need to include how to keep ourselves safe from men, thats sadly just the reality of the world.

Yes I’m always bemused when it becomes an issue of protecting women as if they’re property how much misogyny our society has in common with extremists. What was she wearing? Cover up. Walking alone? Lock up your daughters and wives!

When I went home with a stranger after a night out I had absolutely no idea what kind of man he was. I knew the risks that men pose to women and I chose to ignore it and just “hoped” he was one of the good ones. Im sure the fact I’d had some alcohol played a role in my decision as I wouldn’t make the same decision if I was sober). I put myself in a potentially very dangerous situation with absolutely nobody who could potentially rescue me from it, so yes, I consider myself very lucky that no harm came to me as a result.

But more rapes are not carried out by a complete stranger, but by someone the woman slightly knows and thought she could trust. A relative, a friend, a colleague, a fellow student, someone she has been on a couple of dates with. You don't know what kind of man they are either, you just think you do.

Where do you draw the line? Are short skirts ok? Is going to bars ok? Because some men may take that as an invite to rape. And what makes your line the correct one?