Or is this victim blaming?

I'll get flamed, but i agree with the op. Yes, only the rapist is to blame for raping, but similarly, only a burglar is to blame for burgling, and only a car thief is to blame for stealing a car, and only a murderer is to blame for murdering, but we take precautions against all of these things because we recognise the risk. Pointing out inherent risk isn't 'victim blaming'.

Exactly and what about going running on your own? I used to do that a lot. The risk of getting run over on the street is a lot higher than the risk of being attacked while running on a rural footpath, so I decided it was reasonable to take that risk.

Yes, you’re victim blaming. The mindset needs to change from ‘women: police your behaviour in order to stay safe’, to: ‘men, alter your behaviour and stop harming women’.

It’s really very straightforward.

That's nice that you have the choice.

All sorts of jobs mean that people have to be places where they are alone or have to meet people in 'unsafe' locations. The list is huge and can cover anyone from carers to shopworkers.

Should women turn down these jobs?

WTF? The OP's talking about a completely different type of situation!

I agree.

We risk assess to the best we can (or not in my case) but everyone knows that no amount of risk assessment removes the danger completely.

The risk is always there no matter how safe we think we are.

And as long as taking that risk isn’t part of the discussion about what happened or used as a basis for a defence of the perpetrator, that’s fine.

Ah. Interesting. Your jeans and sweatshirt are' revealing' to some men, btw.

The thing is, the victim did not "decide" to get plastered and go to a hotel room with a man she hardly knows. Therefore, she did not decide to put herself in a dangerous situation. She got into a dangerous situation after losing her capacity for making any kind of sound decision.

She simply decided to have one drink, initially. Then a second. At some point, she was no longer thinking straight. Maybe she loved the feeling of being drunk because it shut down her feelings of hurt, possibly trauma, and banished all her inhibitions. She may have been blaming all those inhibitions for preventing her from having a fulfilling life.

So you can't really ask "what made her decide to go to a hotel room with this man?". You can maybe ask what made her have that first drink, or second drink, if she knows herself well enough to know that was a bad idea.

Why? The question you're asking has nothing to do with the OP who says women shouldn't go into rooms alone with men unless they expect to be raped?!

Yes sorry, I don't understand your point. Saying someone failed to take the advice means they failed to take that advice. It doesn't mean that failure means the rape is their fault. That's a huge, wrongly assumed leap.

We don't tell our daughters, walk wherever, whenever you want. It doesn't matter if you're drunk. Don't worry, because if you do get raped, you can take comfort in the fact it wasn't your fault. We tell them to be careful because we know what some men are like. We do not see ourselves and pre blaming the victim. We do not say- if you go out like that you will be raped, and it will be your fault- We say, please take responsibility for yourself and lessen the risks as much as possible, and we all the time know whether or not the worst happens it was never, ever the victims fault.

But still we would prefer our children take best precautions to not be a victim. We say this is the full belief that if they do become a victim it was never their fault. But yet, it could have still been preventable.

Perhaps the disputed bit is fault/ control?

As with anything bad that happens to us as a result of someone elses wrongs, there are many actions we could have taken to prevent that wrong from harming us. Thats the actual truth. It doesn't mean that the harm that came to us is our fault.

I see what the OP is saying and I don't think she's victim blaming.

Indeed. And when did I get the most cat calls, staring and harassment in my life? Going to and from school in my uniform.

I agree, but it's not victim blaming to ask why some people decide to "take that risk".

How do you protect yourself against murder I wonder ? I agree that we protect ourselves against theft of all kinds but installing car and burglar alarms doesn’t limit your life in the way that women would have to, to mitigate the risk that men pose.

It's the very definition of victim blaming.

Especially as most of us take bigger risks every day.

Yes I think I agree with this. It's too late after you've been raped. The man is still a rapist, you may or may not get a conviction ( probably not) and it's not your fault but none of that matters once you have to live with the psychological trauma of being raped. Surely in all situations you weigh up the risk in each circumstance and it's fine to say to young people ' don't put yourself in risky situations' because the consequences are so grave the arguments about who's fault it is don't really matter when you have to live with a terrible trauma that cannot be erased.

Because once you start down that path you're getting towards 'contributory negligence', diluting the culpability of the man by spreading the blame to encompass the woman.
We need to be clear and unequivocal that rapes happen ONLY because the man is a rapist.
Once we start with the 'ah but it wouldn't have happened if she'd not...' we are handing responsibility to prevent the crime of rape to potential victims not potential perpetrators.
We have fought long and hard to move away from the idea that our rapes happen because of our actions and that women could obliterate this crime if only we changed our behaviour, and we mustn't go back there.
That's not to say women shouldn't be warned about risk and encouraged to avoid it. But that's a conversation its only ever appropriate to have in advance, never after.

Maybe she thinks he is a friend,
Maybe she is too drunk to think clearly
Maybe she is keen to have sex then changes mind.
Maybe she has no battery/money for taxi and after drinks feels like a reasonable option.

Who knows and no idea why it matters.

I really think MN is the wrong place to try to have a sensible debate about women taking some responsibility to protect themselves.

I have not read ONE post that suggests women are the ones responsible if they are raped...amazing how words get twisted.

There is a clear difference between a) taking action to prevent harmful things happening and b) attributing blame for the harmful things when they do happen.

Nobody is to blame for being raped or sexually assaulted and nobody is asking for it. Many rapes are by someone known to the victim, eg date rapes or within a relationship.

However, blaming a man for rape doesn't take away the psychological trauma of being raped or assaulted. It doesn't mean that your own life isn't destroyed even if the man is jailed. The rape still happened.

That is why personal safety is an important thing to teach, including do not go anywhere with someone you don't know, don't walk down dark alleys, don't get excessively drunk, trust your gut with men, take steps to protect yourself. It is not always possible to fully protect yourself but there are things you can do.

Telling men not to rape isn't very helpful when you've already been raped is it? No shit, they shouldn't do it but they do and always have done. So it is sensible to teach women how to avoid rapes as well as blaming men and punishing them when they do rape.

It's a similar principle to the fact that I take steps to protect my property by locking it up and installing alarms. It's still the fault of anyone who breaks in but I'd rather not go through the experience of having my home broken into.

I used to go to bars all the time, I wore short skirts, I wore fitted tops, I flirted…. I never felt in danger though as I was surrounded by people. I certainly didn’t feel like I was at risk. The choices around what I wore and how I behaved in the crowded pub and when I was with all my friends are insignificant really in comparison to the danger I put myself in though when I chose to leave the bar to go back to the house of a man I had only known a few hours.

And I’m not saying my lines are right. Everyone is responsible for their own risk assessments. Some people might think that what I did wasn't stupid at all, and that it’s fine to go back home to the house of a strange man in the middle of the night after a few drinks….. whereas others will think it’s insane behaviour.

When I was 21 I did it.

Now that I’m 42 I feel horrified that I did it and feel very lucky that no harm came to me.

I said "take precautions", not "protect against", one precaution might be not walking alone in areas where the risk might be increased.