Or is this victim blaming?

Yes you are victim blaming. Everyone can say no at any point. I’m sure it’s not unusual that a woman could go back to a hotel room with a man, sober up a bit on the journey and realise she actually doesn’t want to go through with it / doesn’t want to have full sex / was naive and trusted him when he said “let’s go back to my room, watch a movie and cuddle.”

Most men, however disappointed, would accept the “no,/ I don’t want to do that / I’ve changed my mind,” because they are not rapists.

No one should be punished for making a poor decision by being sexually assaulted.

Because they want to have sex/a one night stand without being flipped over and anally raped by Russell Brand.

I think Mumsnet is far from the best place to ask this question. It is a far too emotive subject for many to see it clearly and it makes sense why

Full disclosure, I was subjected to sexual assault (penetrative) so I have my own experience. Firstly yes, the rapist is always guilty and should receive a jail term. It goes without saying. Though someone will inevitably say I am defending rapists or brainwashed by the patriarchy. No. I have just done a lot of work on it.

Looking back, I probably should have been more careful. I went back to the hotel room of a guy I barely knew. I was naive to the fact many men (but not all) may be sexual abusers. I still think he would be shocked if I reported it.

Yes men shouldnt rape or assault. Of course. AND that isnt reality. Regardless of what men should or shouldnt do, in reality some do. We can "yes but.. " all we like and that wont change anything.

Should I have been far more vigilant and careful? Yes. That isnt self blaming, it is a matter of fact. I dont kick myself endlessly about it but I have to own the fact. Its not fair and we shouldnt have to think like this, but I now liken going to a bedroom with a man like going into a tiger enclosure. One cannot fully know what men may do. But it would be unreasonable to put my head in their and wonder why it was ripped off. We arent dealing w reasonable people when we deal w rapists, and we cant tell who is one.

That said, I am in a loving relationship now. I know not all men rape, most dont. My experience hasnt stopped me having healthy relationships since. But I am now aware that the only person I can rely on for my safety is me.

In short, yes it isnt okay to rape and men need long term jail sentences for it (25+ years in my view). At the same time, I know that waiting for men to do better wont keep women and girls safe. And thats a shitty reality.

Avknowledging reality isnt blaming.

I'm confused by your "walking home in the dark" logic. You seem to say "we should be safe walking in the dark but it's risky so many women don't do it".

So we shouldn't do other things that are risky. Like going to work (2 of Brand's victims in the recent trial were assaulted by him while they were working), being asleep or unconcscious or disabled or being a child?

I wouldn’t drive down the motorway at 100mph as it would increase my risk of having an accident

You would also be breaking the law. Stupid analogy.

Sometimes the women are initially interested in having sex with the men hence going back to their home or a hotel but change their minds and the men can’t accept this. It can also be that the woman consents to sex but the man becomes aggressive during the act or performs acts the woman doesn’t want him to, it’s always important to seek consent before doing this as a result.

Victim blaming never helps. Men shouldn’t rape and sexually assault women and yes this includes intoxicated women! I advise reading Laura Bates’s work. Fix the System not the Women is fantastic.

Your logic is flawed because you're assuming you're more likely to be raped by a stranger whose house/hotel you've gone back to.

Do you have that data?

I'm pretty sure you're much more likely to be raped (and beaten up and killed) by a family member or partner.

So if you were actually being logical about reducing risk, rather than judgemental about women who drink and have casual sex, you'd ask

• why do women marry and live with men? It makes them much more likely to be killed and raped. Why not take a safe precaution like lesbianism or remaining single?

• why do women who have a daughter allow that daughter to spend any time alone with their brother/uncle/cousin/grandfather/stepdad? Why not take the safe precaution of stopping at one if you have a daughter and not letting her see other family?

Yet why is pointing out the danger of going to a hotel room of a man you do not know considered victim blaming?

If you do it as a warning before the person has gone to the hotel room; its a warning. "Susan, why in hell would you consider going back to this man's hotel room that you've just met when you're drunk, you could get raped!" - this is a warning, and is not victim blaming.

If you do it after the assault, questioning why they did such a thing - thats victim blaming, of course it is, I dont understand why you cant see the difference. You might as well as them what they were wearing, why they were flirting and all the other cliche things.

Maybe I can ask one of the men in my office to walk me home after dark so I am not alone. But then more women are raped by men they know so...They might take that as an invite to rape me. So confused. How can I reduce my risk?

I'm not a fucking handbag in a car or flashy jewellery, I find that comparison pretty offensive. I was with my ex for months before he assaulted me, should I have known before I went back to his room? Most predators don't walk around with a t-shirt saying "I'm a rapist" you know. Either women never deserve to be raped, or they do, there's no ambiguity there, until we sort that out amongst ourselves we're never going to find it easy to come forward or to convict rapists.

Plus, most women have to walk in the dark at some point. It’s dark before I get out of work!

Stay at home baking pies, obviously.

I wasn't replying to you.

I am unsure how that point can be in any way controversial. If it is, then emotion clouds any logical thinking around this.

You seem very judgy though

You said it was a "great analogy" that the insurance company wouldn't pay out if a handbag was stolen from an unlocked car.

That's nonsense and a shit analogy.

Saying "no" or not giving consent is enough to consider the car locked, imo.

An insurance company wouldn't pay out- What do you mean by agreeing with that as a good comparison? Jury shouldn't convict? People shouldn't disavow the behaviour?

Thank you for saying this - stranger or acquaintance rapes are headline-grabbing but don't reflect the reality of sexual violence. Discussions about risk management so often distort this reality and the risks that women really face from men.

I am a keen runner and I run in remote, off-road locations, often by myself. This includes running by myself, after dark, with a headtorch. People are often very shocked by this, particularly other women. But it is something I enjoy hugely and I believe the risks to me are small - I usually don't see anyone!

Yes, the thought of being attacked by a stranger is scary - and I do manage risk by telling my DH where I'm going and for how long, and carrying a phone - but I know that it's a very unlikely scenario and I won't let it stop me from doing something that I love. If I am attacked it will be because someone decides to attack me, not because I haven't managed risk well.

It saddens me that women feel unable to go out walking or running when it's dark because of a fear of male violence - but the responsibility for that rests with men as a class changing their behaviour and making violence against women totally unacceptable.

I would kindly suggest your case isnt the type the OP is talking about.

I’m hate to even type this but I was raped years ago, late at night by a complete stranger. I was pushed into a corner, hit my head and the rest I won’t describe. I was 18, wearing “hot pants” as was the fashion in the very early 90’s. I was drunk but not legless. It was dark. I was on my own headed home after being out with my friends. I could do nothing to stop it.
Had I not been drunk, walking alone in the dark it wouldn’t have happened to me that night. Did I ever do it again? No. Do I think that rapist would stop raping if the streets had no young women walking home late in the dark? Of course not, he’ll do it to others in whatever situation he can find them in. His home, anywhere.
We all, women, do whatever we can to keep ourselves safe but these men will adapt to whatever opportunity presents itself to them. The men who do this have built up a rapport to the extent the women probably don’t feel unsafe.
I can be walking the dog in broad daylight alone and if a rapist wants to find an opportunity, he will. Should I stay out of wooded areas at lunchtime?

2 things can be true. We need to assess risk and be as safe as we can. Also being raped is never the victim’s fault.

Exactly. "Don't get" why a woman would go home with a man after a night out? Seriously?

Ah. Now you add the word " remote".