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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tell me you don't know what a cult is...

402 replies

Seethlaw · 14/08/2026 09:23

... without telling me you don't know what a cult is.

I grew up in a cult-ish church. It had some very unpleasant aspects to it indeed. The very concept of the GC movement as a cult utterly baffles me, and irritates me quite a bit, I must admit.

Where is our Leader? Some say JKR is that, even though she obviously didn't create the movement, since she joined it after it already existed. Okay, but then where is the cult of personality? Where is the hanging onto her every word? Where is the compulsory study of her life? Where is the regular and compulsory show of support of her as our leader?

What are the specific beliefs that random people outside the movement don't believe? "Men can't become women and vice versa" is not such a belief, since loads of people who would never call themselves GC also believe it. So what are our specific beliefs?

What is the rite of entry into the movement? How does one know that they themselves or someone else is a member of the movement?

Where are the big gatherings where the leaders speak The Word? Where are the regular gatherings where the members reinforce each other's beliefs?

What are the demands made of the members? Where are the compulsory meetings? Where are the financial requirements? Where are the specific behaviours we have to adhere to?

Where are the punishments for leaving the group? How do you even know you've left at all? And where are the stories of abuse and control told by the former members?

I could go on forever.

Accusing GC people of belonging to a cult is just as ridiculous and offensive as claiming, for example, that there's a trans genocide going on. It's deliberately appropriating the real suffering of other people to make a completely false and unsupportable point because there's no actual valid point to make. It's utterly reprehensible and shameful.

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Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/08/2026 18:03

This is reminiscent of all the self important whinging before the board split. This is the sex and gender discussion section of the feminist board of Mumsnet. It’s not people’s entire lives, even the prolific posters. People have a range of styles, some more caustic than others. The internet is not a polite place when people say silly things so if you do it’s liable to be a bruising experience anywhere. Any educational value of this forum is a (welcome) bonus, but it’s not why most people post on a talk board.

The majority of people whining about how women discuss feminism online are MRAs and TRAs. Often you couldn’t get a fag paper between them.

AimsAndObjectives · 15/08/2026 18:35

Seethlaw · 15/08/2026 16:35

Hmm, good question!

My instinctive reaction is that a trans person could use a new name, and that opposite-sex pronouns could be used for them, and it would be okay as long as everyone knew what sex they really are, and they used the right spaces for their sex.

But of course, the very use of that name and those pronouns, would mean that some people might not realise that the person is trans in the first place, which could easily lead to situations where someone takes a decision they would not have taken had they known the real sex of the trans person.

That's complicated! Off the top of my head, I can't think of a solution to accomodate both the need for safeguarding, and the trans person's desire to be treated as the opposite sex. Of course, this is exactly the kind of discussion that should have been had for 15 years at least, instead of trying to force the square trans peg into the round hole of society...

Mind you, a radical solution would be figuring out why the hell people are trans to begin with, and dealing with that problem in the first place! It would be better for society, and just as importantly, it would also be better for trans people, who wouldn't have to be split between what they are and what they want to be treated as. After all, if we're going to medicalise trans people, we might as well medicalise them for the right reason and with the right aims!

I don't think names will be much of an issue. Lots of names are unisex and immigration has meant that we have a mix of names now, where people from one cultural background won't necessarily recognise a name from another background as being sex-coded. I also think that the case for ditching the whole Mr/Mrs/Ms thing is stronger than the case for keeping it.

Pronouns are the sticking point for me. 'Pronouns are Rohypnol' is the case against using them as a courtesy rather than as a reflection of reality, and I have never read an argument that comes close to being able to deny the safeguarding issues raised in that article. Incorrect pronouns in primary school (for a teacher or a celebrity, for example) would be a red line for me.

I think that you have advocated for letting people decide individually which pronouns to use but I'm uncomfortable with that too, because it puts people in a difficult position, especially at work, and will always lead to conflict. (Though that situation is possibly irretrievable now, because I am not sure anyone is going to agree to have their speech compelled one way or the other.) Would you be content with pronoun use generally being she/her for you, with maybe he/him as an option amongst family and friends?

I totally agree with your thoughts on clinical research. I would hope that psychology and psychiatry would be front and centre of that.

Seethlaw · 15/08/2026 19:28

AimsAndObjectives · 15/08/2026 18:35

I don't think names will be much of an issue. Lots of names are unisex and immigration has meant that we have a mix of names now, where people from one cultural background won't necessarily recognise a name from another background as being sex-coded. I also think that the case for ditching the whole Mr/Mrs/Ms thing is stronger than the case for keeping it.

Pronouns are the sticking point for me. 'Pronouns are Rohypnol' is the case against using them as a courtesy rather than as a reflection of reality, and I have never read an argument that comes close to being able to deny the safeguarding issues raised in that article. Incorrect pronouns in primary school (for a teacher or a celebrity, for example) would be a red line for me.

I think that you have advocated for letting people decide individually which pronouns to use but I'm uncomfortable with that too, because it puts people in a difficult position, especially at work, and will always lead to conflict. (Though that situation is possibly irretrievable now, because I am not sure anyone is going to agree to have their speech compelled one way or the other.) Would you be content with pronoun use generally being she/her for you, with maybe he/him as an option amongst family and friends?

I totally agree with your thoughts on clinical research. I would hope that psychology and psychiatry would be front and centre of that.

Would you be content with pronoun use generally being she/her for you, with maybe he/him as an option amongst family and friends?

It's weird, really: intellectually, I really don't mind, because both options reflect one aspect of my being, so both are true. But the idea of being generally called she/her... It feels wrong, you know? It doesn't feel offensive, or depressing, just wrong, like a mistake's been made somewhere. It feels like people wouldn't be talking about me, like they wouldn't be interacting with the real me.

Though, a mix of my male name and female pronouns doesn't feel as bad! That's such a weird feeling and for now I have no idea what's going on in that strange brain of mine 😅

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AimsAndObjectives · 15/08/2026 19:44

Seethlaw · 15/08/2026 19:28

Would you be content with pronoun use generally being she/her for you, with maybe he/him as an option amongst family and friends?

It's weird, really: intellectually, I really don't mind, because both options reflect one aspect of my being, so both are true. But the idea of being generally called she/her... It feels wrong, you know? It doesn't feel offensive, or depressing, just wrong, like a mistake's been made somewhere. It feels like people wouldn't be talking about me, like they wouldn't be interacting with the real me.

Though, a mix of my male name and female pronouns doesn't feel as bad! That's such a weird feeling and for now I have no idea what's going on in that strange brain of mine 😅

Though, a mix of my male name and female pronouns doesn't feel as bad!

It's such an interesting phenomenon you are experiencing, isn't it? I mean that kindly, not in an aloof way. What a shame clinicians have been discouraged from helping trans-identified people to explore its origin.

Pingponghavoc · 15/08/2026 19:54

Id love the people who want a nuanced conversation to jump in with an opinion about the need to be clear about sex for safeguarding, and trans peoples desire to conceal their sex?

Does a school teacher get to change their pronouns? What about someone who works in the school office or is a school caretaker? What about when a parent let's other children in their house for a play date?

When do we think its ok to lie to children about someone sex?

CohensDiamondTeeth · 15/08/2026 19:58

AimsAndObjectives · 15/08/2026 19:44

Though, a mix of my male name and female pronouns doesn't feel as bad!

It's such an interesting phenomenon you are experiencing, isn't it? I mean that kindly, not in an aloof way. What a shame clinicians have been discouraged from helping trans-identified people to explore its origin.

Yes, agreed!

I always appreciate your posts and find it really interesting to hear things from your perspective.

I think you sound like a really nice, thoughtful and grounded person who has been through a lot in their life.

I don't think you have a "strange" brain @Seethlaw I think you are a human being with all the inner complexity that entails. I imagine that knowing your sex while feeling the way you do inside must be a real head twister at times, so I think it's even more impressive that you are so nice, thoughtful, grounded, and that you have held onto your sense of humour despite everything that you've been through and are dealing with Flowers

Seethlaw · 15/08/2026 20:01

AimsAndObjectives · 15/08/2026 19:44

Though, a mix of my male name and female pronouns doesn't feel as bad!

It's such an interesting phenomenon you are experiencing, isn't it? I mean that kindly, not in an aloof way. What a shame clinicians have been discouraged from helping trans-identified people to explore its origin.

It is! I feel there could be so much to learn, not just about trans identity, but about the whole of identity in itself. What makes us, us? Why do we feel the way we do about ourselves? Why do we attach ourselves to some bits of our body or personality, and not others? Trans identity could be like a window into all that, if only it could be properly studied.

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AimsAndObjectives · 15/08/2026 20:01

@CohensDiamondTeeth nice, thoughtful and grounded person

I'm assuming you mean @Seethlaw , not me😂😍

CohensDiamondTeeth · 15/08/2026 20:03

AimsAndObjectives · 15/08/2026 20:01

@CohensDiamondTeeth nice, thoughtful and grounded person

I'm assuming you mean @Seethlaw , not me😂😍

Oops yes I did!

To be fair I think the same of you, so it kind of works both ways 😆

AimsAndObjectives · 15/08/2026 20:04

Seethlaw · 15/08/2026 20:01

It is! I feel there could be so much to learn, not just about trans identity, but about the whole of identity in itself. What makes us, us? Why do we feel the way we do about ourselves? Why do we attach ourselves to some bits of our body or personality, and not others? Trans identity could be like a window into all that, if only it could be properly studied.

Absolutely. I was a religious believer for ages. It was a big part of my identity. Now I'm not. Am I even the same person that I was before? I don't know!

AimsAndObjectives · 15/08/2026 20:05

CohensDiamondTeeth · 15/08/2026 20:03

Oops yes I did!

To be fair I think the same of you, so it kind of works both ways 😆

🥰

Seethlaw · 15/08/2026 20:18

CohensDiamondTeeth · 15/08/2026 19:58

Yes, agreed!

I always appreciate your posts and find it really interesting to hear things from your perspective.

I think you sound like a really nice, thoughtful and grounded person who has been through a lot in their life.

I don't think you have a "strange" brain @Seethlaw I think you are a human being with all the inner complexity that entails. I imagine that knowing your sex while feeling the way you do inside must be a real head twister at times, so I think it's even more impressive that you are so nice, thoughtful, grounded, and that you have held onto your sense of humour despite everything that you've been through and are dealing with Flowers

Awww, thank you :) !

Yeah, it's a head-twister but coming here and reading post after post saying that we are our sex and we can't change it, helped so much! It was weird at first, after so many years of believing I should think of myself only as male, but it was oddly grounding. Basically, all those years, I'd been trying to deal with that twister without having anything I could hold on to, and now I had something: I'm female, my sex cannot change (something which I'd known, but I couldn't fully embrace). Once I could hold onto that, I could start to try to figure out where everything else went, how it was all connected together.

I think that one reason trans people can sometimes be so overly dramatic, is that they are taken up in that storm, they are flying about, and they see anything fixed and solid as a threat, because it's so foreign. So when they are told, "It doesn't have to be complicated," they can only yell back, "Yes, it does," because the idea that it could be simple is almost scary.

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Clusterfuckular · 15/08/2026 20:26

Seethlaw · 15/08/2026 16:35

Hmm, good question!

My instinctive reaction is that a trans person could use a new name, and that opposite-sex pronouns could be used for them, and it would be okay as long as everyone knew what sex they really are, and they used the right spaces for their sex.

But of course, the very use of that name and those pronouns, would mean that some people might not realise that the person is trans in the first place, which could easily lead to situations where someone takes a decision they would not have taken had they known the real sex of the trans person.

That's complicated! Off the top of my head, I can't think of a solution to accomodate both the need for safeguarding, and the trans person's desire to be treated as the opposite sex. Of course, this is exactly the kind of discussion that should have been had for 15 years at least, instead of trying to force the square trans peg into the round hole of society...

Mind you, a radical solution would be figuring out why the hell people are trans to begin with, and dealing with that problem in the first place! It would be better for society, and just as importantly, it would also be better for trans people, who wouldn't have to be split between what they are and what they want to be treated as. After all, if we're going to medicalise trans people, we might as well medicalise them for the right reason and with the right aims!

There's also the cognitive load on using wrong sex pronouns. Barracker's excellent essay 'Pronouns are Rohypnol' makes some very good points on that.

RobinEllacotStrike · 15/08/2026 20:35

Everything we say about gender ideology TRA’s say about GC’s.

the “GC is a cult” shows once again just how wholly unoriginal they are.

I really wouldn’t give it anymore brain space. .

Seethlaw · 15/08/2026 20:41

AimsAndObjectives · 15/08/2026 20:04

Absolutely. I was a religious believer for ages. It was a big part of my identity. Now I'm not. Am I even the same person that I was before? I don't know!

It's the very question of the Ship of Theseus thought experiment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus . Even in a very physical sense, since our body is constantly renewing itself, can we be said to still be us, if this or that organ has been entirely renewed?

Ship of Theseus - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

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Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/08/2026 20:52

RobinEllacotStrike · 15/08/2026 20:35

Everything we say about gender ideology TRA’s say about GC’s.

the “GC is a cult” shows once again just how wholly unoriginal they are.

I really wouldn’t give it anymore brain space. .

You’re quite correct.

Clusterfuckular · 15/08/2026 22:11

Seethlaw · 15/08/2026 20:41

It's the very question of the Ship of Theseus thought experiment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus . Even in a very physical sense, since our body is constantly renewing itself, can we be said to still be us, if this or that organ has been entirely renewed?

Buddhist teachings are underpinned by the concept of 'nonself'. Anatta. (In contrast to Hindu concept of 'atman' or a soul that persists).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatt%C4%81

PriOn1 · 15/08/2026 22:25

Dontmakemethinkofanotherbloodyusername · 15/08/2026 16:57

Declaring my post "laughably bad" while admitting you hadn't even read the full context says more about your reaction than my post. You rushed to defend against a claim that wasn't in the text, arguing against single cult figurehead rather than digesting what was actually said. That kind of immediate, unread dismissal usually points to a grain of truth striking a nerve, cos I can't think why else you feel so confident to reply to a post you haven't read in full. High-control dynamics aren't an all-or-nothing checklist , they're an interconnected web of behaviors incl totalising mindsets, group enforced orthodoxy, in-group jargon, and the immediate rejection of nuance. I'm perfectly confident to have engaged in my reply if you'd actually done so, and yet I'm a bully because you wanna split hairs between didn't read and didn't read in full? Or to suggest that not reading a full post before forming a strong opinion against it is a lack of reading comprehension in practice. It's a lot of choosing to be offended rather than replying to any of my actual points.

These dynamics appear in plenty of other online spaces and algorithmic rabbit holes, including massively in trans spaces. It's a structural reality of digital echo chambers, not a unique attack on any core premise. Distorting the argument to brush it off isn't engaging in very good faith.

Enjoy your dinner!

‘Declaring my post "laughably bad"’

And yet I didn’t do that, did I? You can’t stop lying.

I declared the point I was commenting on to be laughably bad, not the post.

As you are apparently unable to read what I wrote, responding further is pointless.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/08/2026 22:38

There are an awful lot of posters on this thread pretending people said things they didn’t.

Hedgehogforshort · 15/08/2026 22:53

I think the pompous brigade has replaced the TRA

BunfightBetty · 15/08/2026 23:15

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/08/2026 22:38

There are an awful lot of posters on this thread pretending people said things they didn’t.

There’s been an epidemic of it lately.

It has the feel of an attempt to tie us all up in distractions from the real issues in play.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/08/2026 23:16

Agree, Betty

DialSquare · 16/08/2026 07:43

Seethlaw · 15/08/2026 20:41

It's the very question of the Ship of Theseus thought experiment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus . Even in a very physical sense, since our body is constantly renewing itself, can we be said to still be us, if this or that organ has been entirely renewed?

Or Trigger’s Broom for us commoners!

BackToLurk · 16/08/2026 07:47

DialSquare · 16/08/2026 07:43

Or Trigger’s Broom for us commoners!

Oh thank god it wasn’t just me.

ETA: it was once an Only Connect question.

Ship of Theseus, Sugababes, George Washington's axe, Trigger's broom.