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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tell me you don't know what a cult is...

402 replies

Seethlaw · 14/08/2026 09:23

... without telling me you don't know what a cult is.

I grew up in a cult-ish church. It had some very unpleasant aspects to it indeed. The very concept of the GC movement as a cult utterly baffles me, and irritates me quite a bit, I must admit.

Where is our Leader? Some say JKR is that, even though she obviously didn't create the movement, since she joined it after it already existed. Okay, but then where is the cult of personality? Where is the hanging onto her every word? Where is the compulsory study of her life? Where is the regular and compulsory show of support of her as our leader?

What are the specific beliefs that random people outside the movement don't believe? "Men can't become women and vice versa" is not such a belief, since loads of people who would never call themselves GC also believe it. So what are our specific beliefs?

What is the rite of entry into the movement? How does one know that they themselves or someone else is a member of the movement?

Where are the big gatherings where the leaders speak The Word? Where are the regular gatherings where the members reinforce each other's beliefs?

What are the demands made of the members? Where are the compulsory meetings? Where are the financial requirements? Where are the specific behaviours we have to adhere to?

Where are the punishments for leaving the group? How do you even know you've left at all? And where are the stories of abuse and control told by the former members?

I could go on forever.

Accusing GC people of belonging to a cult is just as ridiculous and offensive as claiming, for example, that there's a trans genocide going on. It's deliberately appropriating the real suffering of other people to make a completely false and unsupportable point because there's no actual valid point to make. It's utterly reprehensible and shameful.

OP posts:
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6
AimsAndObjectives · 14/08/2026 22:53

CohensDiamondTeeth · 14/08/2026 22:51

"The namesh Bond, Lame Bond" 😆

😂

AimsAndObjectives · 14/08/2026 22:54

CohensDiamondTeeth · 14/08/2026 22:48

I've never seen that happen before!

It does make the last few pages of thread look a bit weird now @AimsAndObjectives

I wonder if it was a PBP, or just a chaos gremlin TRA.

Oh dear, how sad, never mind!

What's a PBP? Google gives me Penicillin-Binding Protein🤔

Hedgehogforshort · 14/08/2026 22:56

AimsAndObjectives · 14/08/2026 22:54

What's a PBP? Google gives me Penicillin-Binding Protein🤔

And the James Bond ref

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 14/08/2026 22:56

AimsAndObjectives · 14/08/2026 22:54

What's a PBP? Google gives me Penicillin-Binding Protein🤔

Previously Banned Poster,

CohensDiamondTeeth · 14/08/2026 22:57

AimsAndObjectives · 14/08/2026 22:54

What's a PBP? Google gives me Penicillin-Binding Protein🤔

It stands for Previously Banned Poster

AimsAndObjectives · 14/08/2026 22:57

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 14/08/2026 22:56

Previously Banned Poster,

Thanks. That makes more sense 😊

poppsocks · 14/08/2026 23:05

Hedgehogforshort · 14/08/2026 22:00

I guess that some people don't realise that you can be a gender critical person, and a trans person at the same time.

This point is made on many a thread yet TPA seems to think the trans people saying it are lying or don't need to be heard.

There are plenty of trans people who think single-sex facilities are fine.

At least TPA has admitted that it's 'fake panic' they are discussing (why?!)
and it's kind of weird they admitted their kid was 'terrified' of being rejected when they talked to them about who they felt they were. If that's actually true, that's not a good thing at all.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/08/2026 23:06

CohensDiamondTeeth · 14/08/2026 22:51

"The namesh Bond, Lame Bond" 😆

🤣

GrumpyPanda · 14/08/2026 23:27

Women have no safe spaces. Pretending public toilets are, is an insult to our intelligence.

Oh please @TransParentlyAnnoyed. It's the ever-popular toilets red herring that's an insult to our intelligence. Maybe stop harping on about that one and tell us where you stand on the ongoing US Olympus Spa lawsuit, with an all-female Korean nude spa going to the Supreme Court after state courts ruled to force them to admit a fully intact make TW. Or the balding, similarly non-op German TW currently suing for admission to a women only gym with 20% Muslim members - mind you heveas considerate enough to promise to wear speedos in the entirely open space communal showers 🤨. I imagine even your massively bested offspring might have something other to say this than an inane "women have no safe spaces, suck it up."

SpareMe · 14/08/2026 23:37

It’s infuriating init. It was the other way round at the beginning . Queer activists were being accused of being in a cult. Part of the cult behaviour is that they steal and warp every uncomfortable argument directed towards them. It’s DARVO. When accused of DARVO they also start reversing that too.

Not a new or honest idea in their heads.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/08/2026 00:05

SpareMe · 14/08/2026 23:37

It’s infuriating init. It was the other way round at the beginning . Queer activists were being accused of being in a cult. Part of the cult behaviour is that they steal and warp every uncomfortable argument directed towards them. It’s DARVO. When accused of DARVO they also start reversing that too.

Not a new or honest idea in their heads.

Indeed.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/08/2026 00:08

We (FWR) weren’t even allowed to use the c word for ages. It was only when TRAs were blatantly DARVOing it here merrily using it that that went out of the window.

GrumpyPanda · 15/08/2026 00:32

StandingDeskDisco · 14/08/2026 19:33

Attempts at a nuanced position in between 'TW are Women' and 'TW are Men':

  1. Sex is meaningless/old fashioned so I am not going to answer
  2. Sex is a spectrum/fluid, so I am not going to answer
  3. Sex is too complicated to understand, so I am not going to answer
  4. Some TW, the right ones, are women, but some are men
  5. Stop talking about genitals and pants
  6. TWAM, but it is not polite to say it out loud, you should be kind and pretend TWAW
  7. Third spaces make the whole point moot, so no need to answer
  8. The words Woman and Man are sociological constructs, there have been PhDs on it, gender is what matters in society, so no need to answer
  9. Some women can be violent like men, TW are nice and kind, so TWAW
  10. Transmen are obviously not women, they can't go in the ladies toilets, so TW must be women

Obviously, for a really nuanced discussion, each of the above would need a whole paragraph, or a whole post, or a whole series of posts, to really go through all the ins and outs of the nuance.

All of which are just wordier ways of stating TWAW, well kinda sorta.

An actual intermediate position would be TW are TW. And I'm sure I'm not the only one on here to remember just how badly Chimamanda Ngozi Adichi got harassed for saying even that in public. So what's the point of making nice?

ElenOfTheWays · 15/08/2026 01:23

KinderOfKinder · 14/08/2026 09:39

Well, I think the situation - as with so many situations - is nuanced.

My guess is most people calling the GC Cult a cult are referring to 'cultish' or 'cultlike' thinking and behaviour which, to be fair, is pretty spot on.
They could instead have called it the GC Tribe and had (largely) the same implication.

I don't think they are referring to the group as an actual, literal, cult as you describe it (but then, I suspect you know this already and are purposefully drawing a dramatic and fallacious comparison in the hope of deflecting further criticism from those who feel you belong to a cult).

As to the 'cult of personality', whilst it's clear there are many MNetters who slavishly and unthinking seem to deify JKR - judging by their clear posts - I don't think she - or anyone else - is the head of this particular cult; more likely, it's the GC ideology that is held up as the mantra and ruling law of the cult, rather than any individual.

I've seen cult mentioned many, many, many times over this area of MN - sometimes said with intelligent, reasonable sincerity, and sometimes just thrown out as a seeming insult - but the point is that, like it or not, there is a cultlike behavioural model that seems to dominate here, and that those who speak out against it, or call it out, are reacted to in ways I'd imagine a cult reacts to dissenting voices.

but the point is that, like it or not, there is a cultlike behavioural model that seems to dominate here, and that those who speak out against it, or call it out, are reacted to in ways I'd imagine a cult reacts to dissenting voices.

What, you mean like showing evidence of facts that are in the public domain like prison stats or yougov polls, or public statements made by politicians, police or various TRA talking heads, or possibly debunking nonsense about DSDs with medical data - as for a few examples?

Yes that's what ALL cults do when faced with disagreement.

cultyMccultface · 15/08/2026 01:41

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/08/2026 22:41

All the posts from that recent TRA poster appear to have been wiped as if they never happened 😮

Ahhhh! Now I see!

I had no idea what was going on ....

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 15/08/2026 06:31

AimsAndObjectives · 14/08/2026 22:45

It does make the latter part of this thread look a bit weird now, though🤔

I can confirm that, having just caught up with the thread, you all appear to be talking to an invisible person. 😂
I thought it was me, I was thinking about going back to bed and trying again later.

PriOn1 · 15/08/2026 07:46

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/08/2026 22:41

All the posts from that recent TRA poster appear to have been wiped as if they never happened 😮

Glad you said this! The thread is now very confusing.

RedToothBrush · 15/08/2026 09:54

Re language.

Have a think about the differences in the use of factual neutral language and emotive hyperbolic language.

Now there is a certain amount of winding up going on all round but there's also differences.

"A fully intact male going into a female only changing room"

Versus

"If a transwoman goes into a male changing room she will be beaten up and its dehumanising".

Or just more generally
"Women have legal rights to privacy, dignity and safety away from males due to their bodies"

Versus

"It's literal genocide. It's a holocaust against transpeople".

Yes there are far more emotive expressions by Gender Critical people - and actually this tends to be one of the fracture points on this side of the debate with the more hyperbolic figures being the ones who have had the most drama (Graham Linehan being the obvious example) and the non emotional Gender Critical people being the ones who have driven through the factual legal cases.

The media has chased the emotive transrights activists and they have been the most vocal ones on social media and have dominated the conversation.

JKR isn't an emotional figure. She uses language which is simple and doesn't tend to be as emotive (there are exceptions to this).

On MN because we have had such restrictions on what we can say, the dynamic has been that emotive posters were the ones most likely to be banned. The ones who stuck to more neutral uses of language, were more factual and didn't rise to the bait were the ones who survived the ban hammer. That in turn essentially helped to create a very different culture and posting style than you see on other forums (though I would argue that this pre-existed on MN anyway - discussion on politics tend to be in depth and factual due to the knowledge and interests of posters with emotive posters getting bored with it quickly. And I think the same dynamic existed within feminist circles and within gay activist circles because historically they know they get success, better understanding and long term respect from this approach rather than an emotive one).

I do think emotive campaigning - which dominated the Leave movement during the Brexit campaign - does better generally on social media and in the short term because it whips up the crowd because it lends itself to click baiting but it doesn't tend to have long term success because the very nature of such emotive behaviour is that it lacks depth and understanding of the practical hurdles in the way.

The non-emotional approach and understanding of inconvenient truths and problems is the tortoise in the race because you can't just ignore these issues. They don't go away. The factual elements remain.

So it's always worth looking out for this difference in style.

This is why you also why we've had so much tone policing. It's trying to emotively attack factual assertions to try to discredit them. It's not working. The boy who cried wolf dynamic firmly sits in this space as does the smear attempts that gradually lose impact. No one here really cares if they are called a far right wing Nazi anymore. It no longer has the effect of silencing out of shame. The tone policing is about emotively trying to get people to backtrack from factual observations.

The "men pretending to be women" phrase has really hit a nerve. In some contexts it's used with intent to demean. But it's also a phrase which is neutral and accurate. And that's why it's powerful and why there hasn't been a backing away from this assertion on this thread for good reason. The attempts to shame as transphobic haven't stuck - because they no longer have power and 'transphobia' as an accusation has been thrown at absolutely everything including biological scientists and historical archaeologists observations of the human body. It no longer has any meaningful purpose because it's been so over used inappropriately.

The same also goes for 'hate'. Accusations of hate has been used as a substitute for engaging in debate and factual ideas. This means that activists effectively have not been able to develop meaningful deep arguments because they just hide behind the word hate thinking it's a sufficient shield to reality and factual problems in implementation. It's why you get silence to "what is a woman" and an inability to understand that the law is built on facts and that the Supreme Court ruling can only be built on factual descriptions not emotive definitions - and this by nature means that all legal protections for trans people are tied up within how they are identified by sex because gender has no legal definition and no way of being legally defined without being directly in conflict with understandings of sexism because it's a sexist notion built on emotive ideas not factual ones.

Once you understand this, you understand that gender identity is only enforceable by sexist notions and by emotive and abusive methods and it's difficult to roll back from that.

Also see debates about fairness in sport. They don't tend to be emotive. The focus is very much on science and logic to achieve this and you can't escape the point that sport has been in a battle to achieve a biological level playing field for many years within the battle against drugs and their impact on the human body.

This is also why we do have polarised debates on this, but this fails to recognise that polarised debates often have one side much more driven by emotive, shallow arguments and the other side is more grounded, based on understanding of challenges and problems and as a result of this depth of understanding can only communicate this in a way that is more factual and less emotive. (It is not immune to emotive arguments but it's not driven by emotive arguments).

I actually think this is something that over time things on social media will settle down. Historically at times of advances in technology in communication and economic crisis you have a period of very volatile politics as you see a surge in emotive arguments. ATM there is money to be made from click baiting because there is demand. But periods of political turmoil aren't really that good for business in the long run. Greater political stability is better for economic stability and growth.

Greater understanding of emotive v factual debate will grow. Emotive arguments tend to be ideologically driven and this has an age element inbuilt into it. And as a society we will tire of the drama too tbh. That in itself will lead to problem solving. Problem solving can not be grounded in emotive arguments - it has to reference back to these recognitions of immovable obstacles and inconvenient truths.

This is largely where most people now are with Brexit - there isn't a huge push to rejoin the EU and there's greater recognition of some of the underlying social issues which drove the Leave vote and there's an acceptance that in order to trade we have to understand practicalities and barriers. The issue over rights is the one that's not settled but the Good Friday Agreement, the Human Rights Act and membership of the ECHR are all tied together.

That means there's a link between progression on the settlement of Brexit arguments and trans rights arguments. The common point is the cornerstone of rights within our legal framework. It is the immoveable rock within our justice system. If you want to change that you undo the entire post WWII settlement and fabric on which social understanding of others within our society based on the notion of equality. You create lesser castes who by definition can be exploited. It re-establishes the ability to have a second class citizen or even a modern economic slave within the legal frameworks of our law. This is a goal for some - particularly oligarchs (of which Farage is one - hence the embarrassment of the optics and refusal to stand on stage with Binface who has hit the nail on the head and managed to control the narrative and show up Farage as the establishment).

I digress somewhat from my original point, but this depth of understanding of what we stand politically and how technology change and differences in strategy and styles of communication is fundamental and important.

I do think we will get back to a point where naturally we will all start to understand and realise this somewhat seamlessly as 'normal'. Our tolerance for debates being led by crackpots like the Aberdeen nutters, the Linehan Harassment Crew and the Jolyon Family Implosion as a society are ultimately limited as a result. We want resolutions and problems fixed as a society.

The problem always comes back to - no matter how much you try and want to, you can't change sex. This has implications. You can always identify and observe differences in sex regardless of changes in documentation and cosmetic surgery because these changes are all superficial. The whole movement of transactivism is a superficial one based on image and validation by other and a desire to be accepted. (Cults by nature are all tied up in this attempt to make this superficiality look legitimate and have the depth of infinite spirituality or factual basis / grounding).

That's why I am so utterly convinced the whole thing will eventually collapse in on itself. Transpeople will continue to exist - with legal protections - but the insanity of trying to convince us despite the ability to use our eyes, that they have changed sex will dissolve.

PrancingPanda · 15/08/2026 09:59

Sorry but TPA (only 1 letter away from the other acronym) 's comment on "transphobic guidance regarding single-sex spaces" made me smile.
What a piece of hyperbolic nonsense. If TPA and others cannot see that this is silly then there's no hope.
I find it astounding and depressing that so many women are happy, nay .. delighted to give away other womens' rights. They do not consent on my behalf.

It is true DARVO to accuse "GC" people as cult members when the TRA movement are the absolute epitome of a cult.
JKR is not my 'leader' - I don't even like the Potter books- Strike though....

It has been pointed out before- who are the noisy demonstrators? The ones pouring wee on themselves and tomato soup on LWS members? Drowning out women with loud-hailers? Chanting TWAW?
Dirty protests like demanding the Govt give them buckets to collect poop in, for them to deliver it to EHRC offices?
Anyone seen womens' rights groups doing similar??

Posters like TPA, Kind/Kinder et al never comment on stuff like this.
Maybe they think it isn't relevant.
Not intending to de-rail but this aspect of TRA behaviour appears to be glossed over.

Seethlaw · 15/08/2026 09:59

Well, that's fun 😁! I can't check on the thread for one evening, and you people go and have entire discussions with a ghost 👻!

Too bad, too, as this ghost seemed to have questions about how one can be trans and GC at the same time, and I would have loved to explain how it's so much easier and logical than to be a TRA. Ah well.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/08/2026 09:59

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 15/08/2026 06:31

I can confirm that, having just caught up with the thread, you all appear to be talking to an invisible person. 😂
I thought it was me, I was thinking about going back to bed and trying again later.

🤣

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/08/2026 10:10

Seethlaw · 15/08/2026 09:59

Well, that's fun 😁! I can't check on the thread for one evening, and you people go and have entire discussions with a ghost 👻!

Too bad, too, as this ghost seemed to have questions about how one can be trans and GC at the same time, and I would have loved to explain how it's so much easier and logical than to be a TRA. Ah well.

You really didn’t miss much. He appeared, posted a silly gif to high five TPA’s hyperbole, chose to fixate on a post where someone had said that the TRA definition of hate speech was ridiculous, pretended that he thought they were saying there was hate speech on the thread, then repeatedly harangued posters for evidence of the non existent hate speech. A tedious deflection, as I pointed out. He just insulted people saying very little of any substance, then was suddenly gone in a flash. Apparently there was trolling happening elsewhere on the board and lots of 2010 zombie threads were deliberately bumped, that poster had also gone by the time I saw this so not sure if it was the same name.

Heggettypeg · 15/08/2026 10:10

Do you think we disbelieved them out of existence?

Seethlaw · 15/08/2026 10:14

CohensDiamondTeeth · 14/08/2026 21:38

"It is criminal that they were all let down by the medical profession."

Yes it is.

I've just been having a think about compassion.

I feel compassionate towards the parents of children who have been estranged because their children were pulled into gender ideology like your cousin, @PriOn1 and @RapidOnsetGenderCritic. I feel compassionate for the children of those parents.

I've said before, repeatedly, that I feel compassionate towards trans identifying people. That I don't hate them, or want them to "disappear" or be "erased", or whatever. I recognise that they have rights too etc etc.

Examining how far my compassion extends, I find I even feel compassionate towards parents like TransParentlyAnnoyed, even though she keeps coming here and throwing angry words around, misrepresenting what we say, believe and do, while calling us all hateful bigots.

I still agree with PriOn1 and AimsAndObjectives that the affirmation only approach results in damaged children, and cognitive dissonance for the parents who need to convince themselves that they did the right thing or face the real horror of what has happened to their child and the fact they went along with it. Sex still matters, men can't be women, and women can't be men, material reality can't be changed by words, feelings, or fervent wishes.

PriOn1
"I realise you can’t accept that we are correct as that would mean you’ve irretrievably damaged your child’s health by believing in pseudoscience, so your defence of transition is understandable, but your attack on me is way off mark."

AimsAndObjectives
"Yes, that is what I am taking away from this thread. A burst of anger from several posters, directed at women, which is actually a howl of anguish for the mistakes that have been made by so many activists, parents and 'allies' in the trans non-community. Not a cult, a mass delusion that has gone terribly, terribly wrong for everyone involved."

I think really the only people I can't find any real compassion for are the people who are purposely abusive (although, I know that could be considered a bit of a subjective term), and people that cynically profited from, and with total disregard for, the harms done to women, children and vulnerable adults.

I don't want to add to the "you're all in a cult" fodder, but I think that's a fairly common, dare I say moderate, position to take?

But yet I, and people who might happen to also agree with my take on this, are frothing, hate filled transphobes according to TRAs. Now this (fairly?) common, (reasonably?) moderate belief is being presented as cult-like. It's a beyond ridiculous claim when you actually look at what's actually going on.

Great post about compassion!

I definitely try to have compassion on everyone involved. It's not always easy in the moment, when emotions run high and my reflex is to go, "Fuck you!" at what someone says. But when I've had time to cool down and step away from the immediacy of the situation, it's usually grief and compassion that surface in the wake of the anger. Grief at the terrible situations people are forced into, and compassion for their struggles.

That's especially true where families and children are concerned. I'm horrified at how much hell the concept of the trans child brings upon the head of both the children and their families and friends. No matter what the family chooses to do, there's hell to be paid at some point or other, in some way or another. That's just not right at all.

I also have compassion for all the adult trans people out there who believe the lies of the TRAs, whether it's that they can change sex, or that the world hates them, or that they'll finally be happy after the next medical procedure (and the next, and the next), and so on. I wish I could explain to them how much easier it is to live as an openly trans person.

It's so awful how many people are hurt in the name of an ideology that doesn't need to exist at all 😢

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/08/2026 10:16

Heggettypeg · 15/08/2026 10:10

Do you think we disbelieved them out of existence?

I think so. Sad times 😔