Tell me you don't know what a cult is...

[Seethlaw]

... without telling me you don't know what a cult is.

I grew up in a cult-ish church. It had some very unpleasant aspects to it indeed. The very concept of the GC movement as a cult utterly baffles me, and irritates me quite a bit, I must admit.

Where is our Leader? Some say JKR is that, even though she obviously didn't create the movement, since she joined it after it already existed. Okay, but then where is the cult of personality? Where is the hanging onto her every word? Where is the compulsory study of her life? Where is the regular and compulsory show of support of her as our leader?

What are the specific beliefs that random people outside the movement don't believe? "Men can't become women and vice versa" is not such a belief, since loads of people who would never call themselves GC also believe it. So what are our specific beliefs?

What is the rite of entry into the movement? How does one know that they themselves or someone else is a member of the movement?

Where are the big gatherings where the leaders speak The Word? Where are the regular gatherings where the members reinforce each other's beliefs?

What are the demands made of the members? Where are the compulsory meetings? Where are the financial requirements? Where are the specific behaviours we have to adhere to?

Where are the punishments for leaving the group? How do you even know you've left at all? And where are the stories of abuse and control told by the former members?

I could go on forever.

Accusing GC people of belonging to a cult is just as ridiculous and offensive as claiming, for example, that there's a trans genocide going on. It's deliberately appropriating the real suffering of other people to make a completely false and unsupportable point because there's no actual valid point to make. It's utterly reprehensible and shameful.

'cultish' or 'cultlike' thinking and behaviour

What is this cultlike thinking? Believing that humans can't change sex and that sex is sometime revlevant?

Do you think the Supreme Court is part of a cult?

perhaps trans-women and those that support them aren't quite the behorned devils some people here take them to be

You should be careful of that strawman in this heatwave.

You are quite right Seethlaw, the use of any reference to ‘cult’ is to denigrate and ultimately to silence or control how people interact.

Those using the term in any way for a group of people who support female single sex provisions fully excluding male people need to portray the group as being both worthy of derision and vilification and ill informed and simply acting as if they are followers.

Yeah, I'd say that has some merit.

I've never been convinced by the "You are opposed to my personal belief, therefore you must be a bigot" approach. It's intellectually lazy, and serves no purpose other than to further entrench tribalistic divide. Not helpful.

Often I think people use the term nuance after being told their proposed solution is not workable as it doesn’t work to protect female people. How many times do we see the term ‘extreme’, ‘fundamental’, ‘immoderate’ from someone who rejects that their proposed solution or interpretation of the situation leaves female people unprotected. Just like the use of phrases such as ‘it is complicated’.

It actually is pretty clear when a proposal or an action leaves female people unprotected or causes harm.

I regularly read the Reddit detrans board and so many on there have been cut off from their friends when they detransitioned.
So not only are the trans people "your new family" but they also throw you out when you desist.
However, I fail to see a central personality in the TRA movement.

The mantra 'trans women are women' is cult like.

Why would anyone insist on this? Why insist that trans rights depend on everyone else agreeing with a statement that either isn't true or renders the word 'woman' meaningless?

Careful @BackToLurk, you'll get accused of rigidly fixating, taking things literally, getting the wrong end of the stick and missing the entire point 😆

Weird. I see the opposite. I see the women here and in the wider world who are considered GC as independent women on the whole. Many strong personalities with their different twists on various intricacies, different lines that they will/won't cross (and these change individually over time for many of us)

More of a rabble all largely pointed in the same direction than a tribe, and definitely not a cult.

"However, I fail to see a central personality in the TRA movement."

As I've alluded to before, my suspicion with such movements is that the ideology is central, not any one individual.

Although you could make a reasonable argument that some GC people see JKR as the personification of their ideology, but who would you even pick for TRAs?

"a rabble all largely pointed in the same direction"

I love the image that conjures. Of course, this rabble would need pitchforks and flaming brands 😜

that GC ideology is the one, true God belief

What is the opposing belief? That humans can change sex? That sex is never relevant?

people dare to suggest that perhaps trans-women and those that support them aren't quite the behorned devils some people here take them to be.

I see that you are confused. Nobody is suggesting that men are behorned devils. Generally that should make no difference to anyone and sex discrimination is by default unlawful. it's just that there are some situations where sex is relevant to law and policy.

Such posts are routinely followed by a very few well-thought out responses

I would love to hear your well-thought out response explaining why it is wrong to say that humans can't change sex and sex is sometimes relevant.

I wouldn't say a cult in general. I don't find it coherent enough to be a cult. There are a couple of aspects I do find cult-like.

One was the #nodebate thing. Rational movements are happy to make their case. And even when they let that drop they don't actually have anyone who can really make a logical case. The best they could put up against Helen Joyce was Freda Wallace?

Another is the narrative that anyone who disagrees with them hates them and wants them to die, which I feel is designed to isolate trans identifying young people from the wider community. Encouraging schools to encourage children to keep secrets from their families. That's very sinister and yes I'd say cult-like.

The tendency to secrets and hidden meanings that can't be explained to outsiders generally. Still have no idea what the trans movement (bailey excepted, who takes a position the majority of TRAs actively deny) think a woman is that people can identify as. Every time we pin someone down who seems like they might explain, they flounce, or tell us to look it up ourselves, or tell us we just aren't able to understand, or give us circular definitions.

Really? Because again, in my mind, some of the rabble were there 20 minutes early (50% are miffed about how late the others are, 50% just came straight from school drop-off, so they're having a cup of tea and a chat and enjoying the break before the official activities start). Some will stroll in on time, others come in with a flurry just as we kick off, apologising and being assured we've not even started, it's all good. A few more say they have to drop in on their mum, but they'll catch up part way along, and others have the kids in tow because childcare fell through.

None of us have pitch forks - because what we're asking is to be left alone with the rights we fought so long to get, we're not hunting anyone - the most we're doing is asking to be allowed to shoe blokes out of women's spaces with a broom.

"What is the opposing belief? That humans can change sex? "

I see that you are getting confused. Obviously, human can't change sex and - at least, I assume to be the case - TRAs don't believe that either.

Compounding your confusion, you seem to have equated me with a TRA. I support none of you, of either tribe, but my understanding is that the TRA approach is rather more focused on the socio-philosophical question of what is a woman, rather than on the clear, irrefutable biology of it*

*very obviously - or perhaps, given your response, not so obviously? - we're not discussing the higher degrees of biological study and genetics here.

TRA have always suggested that TWAW is a majority view.

When it became clear that it wasn't, they coped by assuming there was an evil leader who has manipulated everyone. Why else were they embraced as women in the 70s but not now?

Its why people who speak out are seen as leaders and evil. KJK and Glinner obvious examples. When really they are just people who speak out.

JKR tweet was the what they wanted. It was a very popular tweet that clearly stated TW are not women. And by a rich women. An obvious cult leader because she has the contacts (she knows bindel!) and the money to organise.

The fact that no one is 'following' her in the real sense is irrelevant because TRA isnt real in any sense.

"I wouldn't say a cult in general. I don't find it coherent enough to be a cult."

I'd agree with that assessment. Heh, their incoherent collective is almost rabble-like, in a way!

"Another is the narrative that anyone who disagrees with them hates them and wants them to die, which I feel is designed to isolate trans identifying young people from the wider community."

This. Spot on. I do think that the TRA idea (ideology?) that anyone who might disagree with them must hate them is as imbecilic as it is unhelpful. It also sets a very bad precedent for young trans-identifying people, and to those people who are natural allies to any minority group.

Some TRAs do claim to believe that humans can change sex, but leaving that aside, is your belief then that humans can't change sex, but that women don't need anti discrimination law?

I think the TRA movement has a lot of cult like features, especially the repetition of slogans which are basically faith-based and the shunning of apostates to a greater or lesser extent, but while lots of people are making money out of it, there’s no single entity leading or getting rich from it.

I know it’s been debated here before but I personally think it’s a bit like post-Reformation splintering, with people coming up with narrower beliefs and rules. That also ties in with purity spirals and the fact that no capitulation or self-abasement is enough to appease the TRAs. So definitely a lot of features of narrow and authoritarian belief systems.

While GC people might express some views forcefully, the only thing we truly have in common is believing sex is real, immutable and important. People across the political spectrum believe this. GC people are not a hive mind let alone a cult.

The one thing I would say has a touch of it is the hope that others will ‘see the light’ or be ‘peaked’ but I consider that’s totally reasonable because it is about engaging with reality rather than an unprovable and varying belief system. I would also argue that GC people want everyone to THINK clearly, and not obfuscate thinking with slogans and mantras.

India Willoughby was on question time, I think, claiming to be a biological woman because he is biological and has a female passport.

Other say that sex is too complicated to divide into two distict sexes.

Others say that taking hormones makes them indistinguishable from the opposite sex. Or even changes their sex.

Others say sex is gender and gender is an inner feeling.

To say TRA dont believe or dont say x of y is ridiculous because they say everything.

very obviously - or perhaps, given your response, not so obviously? - we're not discussing the higher degrees of biological study and genetics here

Women (regardless of how they identify) require rights because of their female biology

I don't think women in Afghanistan are accessing education by posing the 'socio-philosophical question of what is a woman'

Women have to be in a cult because they are incapable to independent critical thought. They have to have been manipulated or tricked.

They have to be wrong, otherwise that means that they are right.

And if they are right, that means activists are the cult who believe in the fantasy that you can change sex.

And the whole entire Law of Cassandra.

The one thing i would say is that trans is an extremely broad church. They will accept a wide range of theories leading to men becoming women.

And they are willing to make compromises to get to that position. They are playing the long game.

But they can because they have nothing to lose.

Women are fighting a constant battle because every compromise risks adult men being alone with a girls.

We have to be hardlined because we are fighting for safeguarding and a little bit of give and take leads to less safeguarding and more men alone in women spaces with girls.

@KinderOfKinder may i ask what you meant by this

very obviously - or perhaps, given your response, not so obviously? - we're not discussing the higher degrees of biological study and genetics here.