Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 7

1000 replies

myladydisdainisyetliving · 08/07/2026 15:28

Previous thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5551375-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-6

TT substack: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

Please note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
SexIsReal · 09/07/2026 21:47

CriticalCondition · 09/07/2026 16:53

I think the laptop threw itself at the jug in suicide bid.

Still laughing at this.

HappilyHarriet · 09/07/2026 22:28

BettyBooper · 09/07/2026 20:16

Is 'do' not a 'doing word'? Is that the verb?

I'm not good at grammar so thought I'd ask the oracle! 😆

Thanks c&p peeps.

My conclusion for today - The majority of people in this country would not believe the amount of public money that is being spaffed up the wall for this complete and utter guff.

Surely that’s the next MN audit - working out how much this infiltration has cost the taxpayer

MyrtleLion · 09/07/2026 23:26

It’s 11.20pm and I’m still at 1645 on this thread.

I was at a tedious meeting this morning, then had an ECG and then accompanied DSD to her PIP assessment which was stressful because I had to spend about five hours in her company - she is lovely, but her learning disability makes her repetitive. The actual assessment was not that bad.

Honestly, I think I had more fun than anyone following this tribunal.

I wasn’t having fun.

Columbidae · 09/07/2026 23:37

MyrtleLion · 09/07/2026 23:26

It’s 11.20pm and I’m still at 1645 on this thread.

I was at a tedious meeting this morning, then had an ECG and then accompanied DSD to her PIP assessment which was stressful because I had to spend about five hours in her company - she is lovely, but her learning disability makes her repetitive. The actual assessment was not that bad.

Honestly, I think I had more fun than anyone following this tribunal.

I wasn’t having fun.

ProfLargofesse has a great summary of what's happened so far a couple pages back. Might save you from having to plough through loads more pages:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5551959-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-7?reply=153431260&utm_campaign=reply&utm_medium=share

MyrtleLion · 09/07/2026 23:51

MarieDeGournay · 09/07/2026 18:19

Every image get's checked out first, a legacy of some nasty incursion of offensive stuff a while ago.
Even this cute pikkie of a sweeeet little rat will get the once-over.

Nothing to do with your nipple-y Tunnocks medal. Now there's a sentence I never thought I'd write.
Hang on, that's not a sentence, it doesn't have a verb - please put 'It has' in front of it and make the N lower case.
I have a reputation as a pedant to keep up, you know!😄

I think the husky rat is your spirit animal 💙

MyrtleLion · 10/07/2026 00:00

Columbidae · 09/07/2026 23:37

ProfLargofesse has a great summary of what's happened so far a couple pages back. Might save you from having to plough through loads more pages:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5551959-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-7?reply=153431260&utm_campaign=reply&utm_medium=share

Unfortunately I insisted on reading every post to the end.

If I didn’t have to get up at 5.30 for an ASD diagnostic call at 7am (for myself), I would be drinking gin.

Is it possible to ask for online access tomorrow? I am free from 1130 and wouldn’t mind seeing NC in action for the first time.

If so, who do I email?

MyrtleLion · 10/07/2026 00:04

MoistVonL · 09/07/2026 17:21

I wish I could buy both @myladydisdainisyetliving and @MrsOvertonsWindow a drink for their Services To Mumsnet today.

Maybe @MyrtleLion could design them a medal.

Hopefully this is a suitable medal.

Men need not be nominated.

Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 7
Columbidae · 10/07/2026 00:10

MyrtleLion · 10/07/2026 00:00

Unfortunately I insisted on reading every post to the end.

If I didn’t have to get up at 5.30 for an ASD diagnostic call at 7am (for myself), I would be drinking gin.

Is it possible to ask for online access tomorrow? I am free from 1130 and wouldn’t mind seeing NC in action for the first time.

If so, who do I email?

Fair enough. You're strong to get through all of the infuriating guff (and to resist the gin).

Hopefully someone knowledgeable sees your question re. access in the morning. Oh and nice medals!

MarieDeGournay · 10/07/2026 00:13

BettyBooper · 09/07/2026 20:16

Is 'do' not a 'doing word'? Is that the verb?

I'm not good at grammar so thought I'd ask the oracle! 😆

Thanks c&p peeps.

My conclusion for today - The majority of people in this country would not believe the amount of public money that is being spaffed up the wall for this complete and utter guff.

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond to the pressing matter of 'Was it or was it not a verb?', which is of course so much more important than anything else we've been posting about😁
'to do' in 'Nothing to do' is just an infinitive, and the infinitive isn't a 'doing word', it's just the basic form of a verb, it doesn't do anything, it's curled up and ready to spring into action as a verb in a proper sentence.
Smile

KnottyAuty · 10/07/2026 07:11

MyrtleLion · 10/07/2026 00:00

Unfortunately I insisted on reading every post to the end.

If I didn’t have to get up at 5.30 for an ASD diagnostic call at 7am (for myself), I would be drinking gin.

Is it possible to ask for online access tomorrow? I am free from 1130 and wouldn’t mind seeing NC in action for the first time.

If so, who do I email?

Apparently access for online viewing has been limited to 40 and was closed some time ago. I tried emailing last week and got no reply. I saw a PP who got the same treatment. So this thread and the TT is where it’s at for most of us 😊

thanks again to all the c&p-ers

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 10/07/2026 07:41

"Tribunal Tweets and The Cut'N'Pasters" would be a great name for a 1970s style disco funk band. Tribunal Tweets three singers in sparkly dresses and the Cut'N'Pasters drums, keyboards and a brass section with slicked back hair and DJs. All women of course.

(edited for wrong decade!)

ShinyBlueTractor · 10/07/2026 07:47

I've been reading along with interest. @Justabaker and colleagues thank you - TT does amazing work. And thanks to all the C&Pers 💪

Boiledbeetle · 10/07/2026 08:08

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 10/07/2026 07:41

"Tribunal Tweets and The Cut'N'Pasters" would be a great name for a 1970s style disco funk band. Tribunal Tweets three singers in sparkly dresses and the Cut'N'Pasters drums, keyboards and a brass section with slicked back hair and DJs. All women of course.

(edited for wrong decade!)

Edited

Annoyingly the first time, despite your very clear 'all women', AI gave me men as the Cut'N'Pasters then when I queried it tried to gaslight me it was all women!

All sorted now though.

Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 7
WittyLimeBiscuit · 10/07/2026 08:10

ShinyBlueTractor · 10/07/2026 07:47

I've been reading along with interest. @Justabaker and colleagues thank you - TT does amazing work. And thanks to all the C&Pers 💪

Seconded. Without groups like Tribunal Tweets so much of this stuff would never be made public.
And is it just me, or is Samantha Tempest a name straight out of porn?

fanOfBen · 10/07/2026 08:19

WittyLimeBiscuit · 10/07/2026 08:10

Seconded. Without groups like Tribunal Tweets so much of this stuff would never be made public.
And is it just me, or is Samantha Tempest a name straight out of porn?

Thirded - and so say all of us I''m sure.

If I remember correctly there's an anime character of that name BUT someone earlier also established that Tempest is a common surname in the area so could be ST's own.

@MyrtleLion I asked for access initially and was turned down because "capacity", then I re-asked a few days in and never even got a reply. So I wouldn't bother, honestly.

BabaYagasHouse · 10/07/2026 08:19

ProfLargofesse · 09/07/2026 17:35

I suppose it could be argued he's giving them all the space and time they need to fuck their own case up. I would think that might make sense if I thought the J was reliably logical but I don't trust him.

But whether I trust him or not, so far, I think it is objectively observable that they have not presented a strong case. They are depending wholly on the idea that just saying sex sometimes matters is creating a hostile environment. This I believe the C believes but his PC of GRA does not protect him from being a time-wasting arsehole which is the case as it currently stands.

Case so far:

SEEN gets set up after agreement by CO.

CA and NB understand that those who don't subscribe to GI have not been heard and that it is legitimate for SEEN network to exist so folk can talk about the material reality of sex and the impact that has, such as pay gap, oppression, prejudice, SSSs etc.

They understand the law does not not mean by manifestation that all discussion should be banned rather that it should be grown up and respectful.

SEEN sets out its stall.

ST rabble rouses and posts insulting and derogatory comments in response.

These are taken down as is the original post.

Much discussion ensues at senior level. Some argue that SEEN should be banned, others recognise that would be discriminatory.

SEEN are told to edit out the invitation to chat as that is being seen by TRAs as debating their existence. Post goes back up, more vitriol, post removed again, SEEN cross.

Whilst discussions are ongoing about how to manage TRAs in the workplace fairly without discriminating against SEEN, codes of conduct are reviewed and updated, moderation is restructured, Yammer moves to Viva Engage which can silo networks more effectively.

SEEN corrects misrepresentation of EQa and PCs in training slide. Nother furore in response. Claims that this amounts to denial of GRA as PC.

Not good enough for ST who continues to insist SEEN removed. Starts a g/x. Gets to work from home before going off sick. OH tell him not to look for things to be offended by but he is engaging throughout with all manner of things.

Some senior staff agree with ST. He is encouraged to believe SEEN will be banned.

Don't know the outcome of initial grievance but think it not upheld so ST appeals. Sympathetic appeal lead consults Top HR boss who advises not legal to ban SEEN.

Recommendations from JH outcome letter can't be fully implemented as she has ignored top HR boss.

ST under the impression he has won. Learns that not all recommendations will be implemented, demands a review of appeal.

Appeal reviewed, nothing found wanting in decision not to implement recommendations.

ET pretty much in progress Includes AM and EW and SEEN. .

Claim against EW and AM dropped and against SEEN dropped no doubt because claims were very weak as the nasty stuff didn't come from them but from TRAs.

Robin White also no longer legal rep?

In claim agains Rs ST claims lots of moderation of TRAs but not of SEEN amounted to hostile working environment and harassment.

The only chance HH has of making a case is to take the position that GC is not WORIADS which is essentially what you are claiming if no manifestation is seen to be reasonable.

J has tried to avoid philopsophical debate and he can't go against Forstater ruling so if he is to find for ST he has to find that the manifestation was not well managed by Rs and I think that is kinda impossible. In the sea of TRA tantrums there was one post that was left up when it might not have been when under review. That's it. Other than GC is evil.

I've probably got some of that in the wrong order and missed bits out but that is the sense I make of it so far.

Many thanks for this excellent summary.

Thanks too, to all the C&Pers.

Just catching up.

What a mind-blowing case (amongst mind -blowing cases) this is!

Justabaker · 10/07/2026 08:30

KnottyAuty · 09/07/2026 21:05

HH - clear C is saying C just wants to come to work without having existence and id debated. says - Why do we need to have this convo in workplace?
has GRC and can change birth cert.
CA not disputed.

Question - hasn’t HH just triggered the GRA protection of trans people by revealing the existence of a GRC? Whats the penalty for this crime?

GRC in C's WS.

KeepupKardigans · 10/07/2026 08:32

So for me this case is about What’s Sauce for the Goose is Sauce for the Gander ’ . This gander, at home/away in a rural setting will fully manifested into yet another pretend silly goose. Not content with their place in the pecking order went gandering and aggressively beak poking into the affairs of real Mother Geese using farmyard tactics . After all they are known as the ‘Watchdogs of the East’. If you’ve ever been chased by them you would know just how reactive, persistent and sharp those beaks can be. Couldn’t find a suitable image to post but after yesterday’s pantomime of ‘oh yes she did and oh no she didn’t’ it’s not hard to imagine.

Hyenana · 10/07/2026 08:32

After being completely fascinated with this case and glued to TT and Mumsnet - thanks to all c&p'ers! 🏆🏆🏆- I still ask myself:

But is this really IMPORTANT?

Is it just a historic example of pre-FWS trans hyperbole that will be roundly dismissed in the first round and that will be the end of it?

Or is there an actual chance that this attempt to simultaneously re-litigate Forstater and reinterpret the EA to mean that
'of course you can have evil gc beliefs in your head but any manifestation is an attack on trans people's identity and obviously identity is a more fundamental characteristic to a person than a mere belief so you have to stfu and your employer has to make you stfu'
will win in court, at this level or the next?

And how might the new 'conversion' bill affect the legal landscape regarding cases like this?
Dennis Kavanagh has a thread on this, and crucially this bill seeks to penalise

  • any conduct with the presumed goal to make a trans person question their identity and thereby 'distress' them
  • a company can be guilty of this, even just by failing to stop this conduct
  • anybody can bring this case, including 3rd parties like GLP etc
https://nitter.poast.org/Jebadoo2/status/2073534081376067701#m

Considering that ST explicitly accuses Transgender Trend of "conversion therapy" (WS page 24) and his employer of harming him by allowing a discussion of MBIM, could we see more cases like this in the future, that might have a reasonable chance of winning?

Or am I just doom-mongering here?

KnottyAuty · 10/07/2026 08:38

ProfLargofesse · 09/07/2026 17:35

I suppose it could be argued he's giving them all the space and time they need to fuck their own case up. I would think that might make sense if I thought the J was reliably logical but I don't trust him.

But whether I trust him or not, so far, I think it is objectively observable that they have not presented a strong case. They are depending wholly on the idea that just saying sex sometimes matters is creating a hostile environment. This I believe the C believes but his PC of GRA does not protect him from being a time-wasting arsehole which is the case as it currently stands.

Case so far:

SEEN gets set up after agreement by CO.

CA and NB understand that those who don't subscribe to GI have not been heard and that it is legitimate for SEEN network to exist so folk can talk about the material reality of sex and the impact that has, such as pay gap, oppression, prejudice, SSSs etc.

They understand the law does not not mean by manifestation that all discussion should be banned rather that it should be grown up and respectful.

SEEN sets out its stall.

ST rabble rouses and posts insulting and derogatory comments in response.

These are taken down as is the original post.

Much discussion ensues at senior level. Some argue that SEEN should be banned, others recognise that would be discriminatory.

SEEN are told to edit out the invitation to chat as that is being seen by TRAs as debating their existence. Post goes back up, more vitriol, post removed again, SEEN cross.

Whilst discussions are ongoing about how to manage TRAs in the workplace fairly without discriminating against SEEN, codes of conduct are reviewed and updated, moderation is restructured, Yammer moves to Viva Engage which can silo networks more effectively.

SEEN corrects misrepresentation of EQa and PCs in training slide. Nother furore in response. Claims that this amounts to denial of GRA as PC.

Not good enough for ST who continues to insist SEEN removed. Starts a g/x. Gets to work from home before going off sick. OH tell him not to look for things to be offended by but he is engaging throughout with all manner of things.

Some senior staff agree with ST. He is encouraged to believe SEEN will be banned.

Don't know the outcome of initial grievance but think it not upheld so ST appeals. Sympathetic appeal lead consults Top HR boss who advises not legal to ban SEEN.

Recommendations from JH outcome letter can't be fully implemented as she has ignored top HR boss.

ST under the impression he has won. Learns that not all recommendations will be implemented, demands a review of appeal.

Appeal reviewed, nothing found wanting in decision not to implement recommendations.

ET pretty much in progress Includes AM and EW and SEEN. .

Claim against EW and AM dropped and against SEEN dropped no doubt because claims were very weak as the nasty stuff didn't come from them but from TRAs.

Robin White also no longer legal rep?

In claim agains Rs ST claims lots of moderation of TRAs but not of SEEN amounted to hostile working environment and harassment.

The only chance HH has of making a case is to take the position that GC is not WORIADS which is essentially what you are claiming if no manifestation is seen to be reasonable.

J has tried to avoid philopsophical debate and he can't go against Forstater ruling so if he is to find for ST he has to find that the manifestation was not well managed by Rs and I think that is kinda impossible. In the sea of TRA tantrums there was one post that was left up when it might not have been when under review. That's it. Other than GC is evil.

I've probably got some of that in the wrong order and missed bits out but that is the sense I make of it so far.

Excellent summary - having another read this morning after the link was posted.

This is my favourite bit of your analysis by far (my bold for emphasis):

They are depending wholly on the idea that just saying sex sometimes matters is creating a hostile environment. This I believe the C believes but his PC of GRA does not protect him from being a time-wasting arsehole which is the case as it currently stands.

KnottyAuty · 10/07/2026 08:44

And why hasn’t EW taken DEFRA to ET after they have allowed ST to harass her via this process? While they have allowed SEEN to exist and tried to moderate posts on Y etc they still remain so biased to the trans lobby that they can’t seem to say in plain language that ST et al have behaved abominably in the workplace. Threatening to sue her personally for a lawful workplace network? WTF? Surely thats misconduct theyve sanctioned? They only alude to it. Total bias against EW even now - she should hold them to account for such obvious detriment

BettyBooper · 10/07/2026 08:48

MarieDeGournay · 10/07/2026 00:13

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond to the pressing matter of 'Was it or was it not a verb?', which is of course so much more important than anything else we've been posting about😁
'to do' in 'Nothing to do' is just an infinitive, and the infinitive isn't a 'doing word', it's just the basic form of a verb, it doesn't do anything, it's curled up and ready to spring into action as a verb in a proper sentence.
Smile

Thanks Marie!

I still don't fully understand, but I am enjoying the visualisation of a verb curled up and ready to spring into action! 😆

ItsCoolForCats · 10/07/2026 08:49

I hope ST doesn't go on the BBC news website this morning.

There is an article about how heatwaves can impact women more than men because of bigoted thing such as periods. Literal erasure of transwomen. And it uses the word women in the transphobic sense too, not the inclusive intersectional feminist version.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gyp1knzzxo

A woman wearing a white vest and blue jeans sitting on the floor of her home near a window with sun streaming through on to the floor with a fan held to her face.

UK weather: Why heatwaves hit women harder

Experts are calling for better awareness of the heat-related risks to women and more targeted efforts to protect them.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gyp1knzzxo

KnottyAuty · 10/07/2026 08:50

Justabaker · 10/07/2026 08:30

GRC in C's WS.

Ah yes

Criminal Offence: Section 22 of the GRA makes it unlawful for officials (such as employers, medical professionals, or government staff) to share information about someone's gender recognition without consent.

There are exceptions to this including legal obligations

Interestingly an employer cant ask to see the GRC. And the EA doesn’t require one for protection under GR. So it’s potentially open to abuse

BettyBooper · 10/07/2026 08:52

EdithStourton · 09/07/2026 21:28

I'm guessing that if it was put to a referendum with a choice of 'spaffing it up the wall on this guff' or 'spending it on fixing potholes', 99% of the population would want it spent on the potholes.

Though that might slightly cramp the style of all the FB wits who post pictures with captions like, 'Watch out for the big un on Mill Lane as you come up Galbraiths on the right, it's got seals it.'

Trouble is (as with so much concerning GI) that if you try to explain it to someone who hasn't been following this stuff, you sound like a crazy person.

Most people would struggle to believe this is really happening. It's just too absurd.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread