Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 7

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5551375-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-6

TT substack: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

Please note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

Who pays costs if ST loses his case?

HH - SMN may well have picked up on link to Lotus Eaters
CA - she may have, but eventually that may have lead to future decision on links to external websites.
HH - EW witness statement please
HH - it is a section para 144 of EW statement, the Ritchie Herron (RH) post.

HH - specif para 146. she describes making an error with the post, not checking links to other interviews Mr Herron had done. The reason she describes removing the link is because she had been alerted to the issue by the cabinet office

CA - no it's on lived experience and when so much importance placed on lived experience suprised so much focused on this. this is an article on post gov SEEN it's a personal experience, that's all there is to it really

Excellent woman.

I loathe the selfishness of the GI movement.

Trans turned its back on Ritchie Herron, disavowed him for the crime of wanting to accept himself while carrying the damage of their bloody cult on his body and his psyche, and now HH attempts to diminish him to a point in an argument, a pawn for anti-trans. Multiple truly revolting implications that Ritchie talking about his life is seeking to undermine trans and "having a go at trans networks and allies". It's pseudomorality crafted into a weapon while claiming to be a shield. Every self proclaimed ally and supporter of this should be ashamed. Ritchie deserved better then and he deserves better now.

I'll get off my soapbox.

The parties pay their own costs in an ET unless there are really exceptional circumstances which there won't be here.

On other bits of Twitter, somebody has spotted that Murray Blackburn MacKenzie is also listed on Amnesty's glorious spreadsheet of "anti-rights organisations"

Derailing to say not just a big thank you to the c&p-ers, but how exciting it is to watch you handing it over flawlessly at full speed, it's like passing the baton in a relay race, or docking with the Space Station.
Or when planes re-fuel in flight..
😃

HH -one final doc to take you to in main bundle. That NC ref to earlier - 1117. We know from both EW statement and this that the article was reposted without link in August 2023.

Please let this be the end of the Spreadsheet of Doom qns

Oh please do take over @BettyBooper

That comment jumped out at me too. One lived experience is sufficiently worthy to enter spaces of the opposite sex. Another lived experience is never to be mentioned. Doesn’t seem very ‘equal’.

I presume that HH is wanging on about these individual posts and the moderation decisions because it's all she has in terms of actual evidence as opposed to hurt feelings.

From TT

A post with links to what has been described as 'far right anti trans website' was allowed to remain live on SEEN yammer for five months CA no post to article on post gov website has remained on yammer. Links to cross gov websites are permiss, common and expected, cross gov networks deal with cabinet as they have in this case.

HH but you have ultimatively responsible in Defra for Yammer and Viva your focus is that SEEN can express protected belief. But nobody has looked from C perspective CA our focus to adhere to legal requirements.

CA we were moderation the way SEEN issued comms we were frequently publishing messages that Defra doesn't support bulling of trans colleagues and GC, many messages of support of trans colleagues from senior figures judge asked for repeat of all this.

NC - we have been engaging with trans networks throughout this. Sarah Homer is chair of LGBTplus board and is in constant contact with network leads (missed poor sound)

NC is quoting statement that Defra doesn't tolerate bulling or harass of trans colleagues or those with GC beliefs. Several messages of support published on intranet. Written down with senior leaders. That is what I captured. NC repeated for J

HH - 1732 please. Note from Cabinet Office - a pointer to our responsibility of civil servants to work on cross gov networks - look at 4th para - 'impartiality' 'avoid politicising'....'recommend research on external groups' Well SEEN hadn't done that in March

Not again......we can't go through another whole morning with HH hammering the exact same point over and over again.

New thread up at https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5552674-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-8 please fill up this one first.

I tend to assume that these people have autism. Stroking shoulders is a sensory stim; they haven't learned as children what is acceptable clothing or behaviour in public for women and girls because they weren't brought up as women and girls or taught about women and girls' clothing and they don't understand what they weren't explicitly taught. No mother ever said "don't do that" or "you're not going to the office dressed like that" and they were never part of or even on the fringes of the gaggle of girls bitching about other girls wearing (as some of my friends used to say, apologies wims!) "slag dresses". They've had none of that socialisation and so their view of what's socially accepted female dress and behaviour is ... idiosyncratic. It may not even be autism as such sometimes it's just that they never were socialised as girls and they don't know or care how it works. It's based on very surface observation and so it's always slightly "off". (Or in the case of Biggus Tittus it's very far off indeed )

Amnesty are taking a page from the Southern Poverty Law Center (sp on purpose) - call anyone that disagrees with the extreme views of progressive politics far right. Far right has ceased to have any meaning except - they disagree with the org or person hurling the words.

J - give her a chance to answer
CA first was subsequently withdrawn can't remember the second point is primarily looking at events and speakers networks organising
HH - on any analysis SEEN not conducting reasearch?
CA - I don't know for def because this is cross gov seen and it wasn't event or speaker which this guidance is driected at
J - when was it withdrawn?
CA trying to remember, think it might have been 2022/23

At this point I'm not sure if boredom or anger is my main emotion. I am so sick of HH repeating the same questions.

CA our focus to adhere to legal requirements.

our focus is to adhere to legal requirements
t-shirt, please, size M
Not in an exciting colour - 'legal pad yellow' would be OK, but 'parchment' probably most appropriate
😄

Someone or some organisation is funding ST to the tune of tens of thousands of pounds. We don't know who that is but they will be paying win or lose.

In general costs are not awarded in ETs unless one side acts particularly egregiously e.g. criminally.

The SS of Doom was admitted as an electric document only. The bundle available to attendees was a physical bundle only. So no one has seen it except the parties and witnesses.

The French word ennui describes a feeling that combines tiredness and boredom.