Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 4

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5549122-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-3

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

I will also note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

J: This report does not originate from DEFRA, so the report cannot be DEFRA doing anything.
ED: Don't know who they talked to
J: You seem to be saying that DEFRA giving evidence to this investigation, and that is 'wahsing their hands'?
ED: Am glad IX was outside DEFRA but, this is a report by people I don't know, making a conclusion that makes no sense.
AL: One other point re this report. Your WS para 19 c(ii)
AL: You are discussing the Matt Walsh post, you give your views that you disagree with it and would not wish to see it.

It's a circle here!

J: This report does not originate from DEFRA, so the report cannot be DEFRA doing anything.
ED: Don't know who they talked to
J: You seem to be saying that DEFRA giving evidence to this investigation, and that is 'wahsing their hands'?

I've not caught up from this morning yet - was ED this argumentative (based on TT) this morning too?

AL: And the new bundle p31. There are sreenshots of discussion re MW between Andreas Mueller and others. This is what you were thinking of in WS?
ED: Yes.
AL: If you read report 7.2.12 [I think] AL: The C in this case is claiming posting the MW stuff is harassment - this report concludes it doesn't, and gives its reasons.
ED: It does yes
AL: That is all my questions

Scone-shaped, if you will.

It’s the don't want to see it but i looked anyway approach, i did this when someone posted a link to her witness statement., i knew i would find it difficult to read.

Right off the bat, my lady.

I think Douglas also has a couple, along the lines of: ‘You’re mistaking me for someone who cares what you think’ and ‘Did I say I don’t know? I mean I don’t care.’ Besides, Douglas would have sorted all this out long ago.

AL: If you read report 7.2.12 [I think] AL: The C in this case is claiming posting the MW stuff is harassment - this report concludes it doesn't, and gives its reasons.
ED: It does yes

I’m 15 minutes behind so apologies if this has been said. She’s just been made CEO of the Royal Academy of Engineering.
https://raeng.org.uk/about-us/staff-trustee-board-and-committees/chief-executive/

It's time for the queens speech everyone, shhhh.

J: How long do you think you will be Miss Cunningham?
[missed response]
J: Let's try to avoid going over same matters.
NC: Going to develop further a couple of points by AL. He asked you earlier, you agreed that SEEN and aG are similar in that based on PC?
ED: Yes
NC: Not quite as simple as that - for aG "trans" extends beyond PC of gender reassignment
ED: [cites EA definition of GR] NC: Someone 'gender fluid' is not doing that, does not have the PC?

A L rests his case.

He's done an excellent job in showing that DEFRA conducted the investigation appropriately and fairly and with recourse to equality rules.

I’m not sure who is c&ping here. I though it was @Jimmyneutronsforehead, but is @Shortshriftandlethal also doing it?

It is very confusing to have two.

ED: Am glad IX was outside DEFRA but, this is a report by people I don't know, making a conclusion that makes no sense

Strewth, 😦 it doesn't count until I approve it.

I'm just reading all ED's testimony as MeMeMeMeMeMe...

I'll stop if you want....also confusing to have lots of posts about food inbetween.

ED: It's anyone that considers themselves trans yes
NC: And 'intersex' - that's not per se PC? aGender is re some linked matters and some are PCs, but it's not exact thing?
ED: Yes
NC: p353
NC: Pls read "our mission statement"
NC: You can see that what SEEN is about is, the PC of sex
ED: That's what they say yes
NC: They have to rely on PC of belief, bcs of what they mean by 'sex'?
ED: Their belief about who is a woman, yes
NC: And their definition of sex is the exact same as the law.
ED: Not everybody would think so.
NC: In all Equality Act matters, after For Women Scotland?
ED: Not going to argue with you

J: How long do you think you will be Miss Cunningham? [missed response] J: Let's try to avoid going over same matters.

Naomi up now...

ED: Not going to argue with you

…and yet I think you will not be able to stop yourself.

NC: And their definition of sex is the exact same as the law.
ED: Not everybody would think so.

Questioning the law in a legal setting, bold move. 😂

NC: You are v familiar with the FWS case, and what it says
ED: Yes
NC: [missed]
ED: argument is not about sex, it's about who can be a woman, woman and man are genders, GC ppl say sex and gender are the same thing, we disagreed, womanhood is wider, for protection of atypical and absent sex characterics -
J: I know important to you ED but too fast for me to note. Can you say it again, but much more slowly
ED: aG position is inclusive feminsim, global majority feminism, 'woman' must include ppl with sex charactertics even when not female, or atypical or absent.

ED: argument is not about sex, it's about who can be a woman, woman and man are genders

Gobbledegook.

ED: aG position is inclusive feminsim, global majority feminism, 'woman' must include ppl with sex charactertics even when not female, or atypical or absent.

There's that Global Left crap again. 🤬