Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 2

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5546841-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-follow-on-from-chair-of-seen-is-being-sued

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

I will also note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

Also not taking into account her autism.

Possibly logomisia, a poorly understood part of some autistic peoples experience. - Not saying Elspeth experiences this, but thought I'd take a moment to explain it in relation to autism for the well behaved class and how compelled speech in court may affect someone with autism.

"Logomisia, often called "word aversion", is a psychological and linguistic phenomenon where a person experiences an intense, irrational disgust, cringe, or aversion to the sound, sight, or meaning of a specific word or phrase."- sorry, copied from Google AI for ease.

For autistic people, this can happen for a few different reasons:

The phonetic qualities of the word feel unpleasant (even if it's not a general sound sensitivity).

The mouthfeel of saying the word feels wrong or uncomfortable.

Sensory aversions.

The word has developed a strong emotional or sensory association.

It clashes with a person's preference for precise or logical language.

A common issue with logomisia within autism is also names and pronouns, where using a specific name or pronouns causes distress.

Anyway, nobody asked for this input. My word isn't gospel, every experience is different but as someone who suffers with this it really makes me feel for Elspeth that the judge is compelling this speech.

You are right about that. I was thinking about what AL said in court about it yesterday and confused the distinction (apologies):

J: Yes I recall seeing that it was not in bundle, but trouble is that witness is speaking to it as evidence and we don't have it. Large and unwieldy spreadsheet does not fill me with joy, but we need to deal with this.
AL: I've referred to it in terms of numbers of complaints and number upheld etc.
J: What document is it?
AL: I think it's the actual moderation log they use - not a doc specially prepared for us.
J: It's very large, and we don't know what we'll need to look at ...
AL: We have not had specifics from C about it in WS, only broad descriptions.
J: We shall still need to refer to it I think?
AL: We have had no detailed account of how it supports C case - wd have thought the WS would have been obvious place for that?
J: You might put it that, vague allegations about what something says then no need to look in detail? But then, C appears to be relying on it ... hmm
HH: It's been referred to quite a bit and I thought there was no objection to court seeing it
AL: I think referred to twice?
HH: I think twice on Friday, plus now, and I do think that at some point the tribunal is going to say 'we need to see this to understand the evidence'
HH: I accept that if AL wants it in now to cross examination on -
AL: This should not be put on me - my point is that you had opportunity to question C on this [he means, for the WS] and chose not to.

So the main thrust is not that it was mentioned but there was no clarity about how it supported the claims ST was making in the WS and was not sufficiently questioned within court to validate its introduction, if I have read AL correctly here

As the SS of doom was referenced in ST's witness statement it really should have been exhibited. Poor of his solicitors to not include it, in a form that is easily read as well as native format.

Thank you @Jimmyneutronsforehead that's interesting.

The clerk who set out that letter is the same clerk that sent out the original meeting log in details with an open distribution list. I don’t think addressing communication is their strong point, and I wouldn’t necessarily think it represents the attitude of the judge

I am standing by to C&P - there is a small chance I may get called away, but the chance that will happen without me being able to say so is very small!

It's a picture book with fewer than 300 words. I took him saying that he hadn't read it cover to cover to mean that he has never actually seen or read this book, but he heard it's transphobic on Reddit so complained about it on that basis.

I would love if this book was in the bundle and he was asked what specifically about it would have caused him such distress to read it as a child.

Looks like India Willoughby himself posted about this case, linking to to a web page that even mentions Mumsnet, as well as Andreas Mueller:
https://nitter.poast.org/IndiaWilloughby/status/2070468538570027482#m
(Is 'lauradelcolbrown' a witness in this case? The name was not mentioned on TT I think)

Also Gyll King posted about it, and the screenshots in her post seem to indicate there is some pro-ST substack that deals with the case:
https://nitter.poast.org/GyllKing/status/2070413813384434000#m

This is a really interesting podcast which explores how small group are exploiting the Intersex term for financial gain and why it's harmful to those with DSDs.

With Roisin Michaux.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/3p4H6rRiVtXWsbQ5XtsRUi?si=PzfQLKZ3RaSUuIjKUqI60w

I don’t think Laura Brown is going to be a witness. She doesn’t seem to be doing the FOIs any more. I expect Willoughby got this by reading these MN threads about this case and following links.

Have you had any substantive response to your complaint @myladydisdainisyetliving ?

Wow, Gyll King is a very unpleasant person.

That Gyll person clearly asked AI to formulate the overall text and it’s drawn on as you say, some biased Substack which pretty much says what several of us have said on the thread, it’s about setting boundaries to Forstater. Some of those tweet replies 🤡

Well, I wouldn’t be surprised if HH et al didn’t include it to support his WS ‘vague’ allegations (as per judge) because it doesn’t do that in the eyes of any reasonable person. Or to a degree that any reasonable person would view it as evidence of the claimant’s claims. Otherwise, it would be a claim A, then evidence is B. No dumping of the SS, where others have to try to find a needle in a haystack. But it is definitely in there if you look hard enough. Paraphrased, and my personal opinion..

Also possibly raises unhelpful question about how the poor man was apparently off sick at the thought of anyone not believing men have to be viewed as women if they want, but seems obsessed with trawling through the very things he said made him unwell (or whatever). And, possibly had a crew of other ‘hunters’ engaging with him to do that.

I think it should be in the bundle. More than anything else, it shows how ridiculous and prejudiced ST is.

Hmm, late start this morning. I wonder if NC's post last night is anything to do with it and there's something afoot.

Nope. And I have been told by someone else who was also an original recipient to tell me that they have not had a notification of their personal data being breached/please delete the email containing other people’s data.

I’m going to follow up once more and then if no response I will log it with ICO as a failure to follow process. I very much doubt that they will open an investigation on this alone, but logging it means the evidence is there if this is a common occurrence for this particular organisation.

I'm never going to be able to look at an excel spreadsheet ever again after this tribunal. It's too terrifying to even contemplate.

Oh, I remember that.

An avalanche of FOIs trying to find out who Mumsnet users were.

I've archived the site, if anyone wants to read it.

https://archive.ph/vrbxF

'Several people posting transphobic material on Mumsnet have identified themselves as employees of Defra group.'

Mate. I identify mysef as the actual President of Scotland. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Maybe NC could read it to the tribunal. It wouldn't take long.

What was NC's post?

I'd happily donate my copy if required!

Is this the post you mean? https://x.com/LoudBonnet/status/2071451018420781500?s=20

Ooh!